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GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

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By Joe Brockmeier
March 26, 2024

The GNOME project announced GNOME 46 (code-named "Kathmandu") on March 20. The release has quite a few updates and improvements across user applications, developer tools, and under the hood. One thing stood out while looking over this release—a major emphasis on Flatpaks as the way to acquire and update GNOME software.

Improvements

One of the headline features for GNOME 46 is its global search feature, but it requires some tweaking before it becomes as useful as it could be. Users can now bring up the global search by pressing the Super key (the key with a Windows symbol on many keyboards), Ctrl+Shift+F, or by clicking the Activities button in the top bar, provide a search term and the global search feature will display results from installed applications, GNOME's settings, installable applications in the software store, contacts in the GNOME address book, and any matching files. Well, any matching files that are in directories that GNOME has been configured to search.

Weirdly, search is only set up to look through a handful of directories by default, which is not quite what one would expect. A user would likely expect all of the files in their home directory to be part of a global search, but this is not the case. GNOME will search a user's home directory at the top level, plus Documents, Downloads, Music, Pictures, and Videos. If one wants GNOME to search, say, ~/src, then it's necessary to add ~/src specifically as a search location. Once configured to peek into the proper directories, search works quickly and well, but it's not intuitive to have to specify each subdirectory.

The project has also refactored Files (or Nautilus, as it used to be known) to improve performance. (An example of that work is here.) Prior to GNOME 46, Files would be noticeably slow when viewing a directory with, say, a lot of photos. For example, I have one directory with 1,188 JPEGs, a total of 9.8GB of photos. It would take Files quite a while to render the thumbnails for the images, which felt sluggish. Not unusable, but definitely slow even on a recent system with an NVMe drive and 64GB of RAM. Using Files with the improvements in this release feels much faster.

[The GNOME 46 desktop]

Touchpad settings have gotten a few new options that may make laptop users happy. One of the worst things about early touchpad use on Linux was accidentally sending the pointer skidding across the desktop while typing, and possibly switching application focus accidentally. A setting was eventually added to disable the touchpad while typing, which makes it much easier to write while sitting on the couch. But, some applications call for a combination of key presses and touchpad movement—so users can now turn that feature off if needed.

The touchpad settings also picked up new options for right-clicking (also called "secondary click"), so users can choose whether they prefer to cause a right-click with two fingers or by tapping a corner of the touchpad.

One of the ways GNOME tries to simplify life for users is by providing an easy way to connect to online services, and to share those connections with its applications. For example, users can provide access to a Google account to give GNOME's applications access to Gmail, Google Calendar, and files stored in Google Drive. Users set up access to these services using the online accounts settings. The supported account types have changed over time, but recent releases include support for email (SMTP/IMAP), Nextcloud, Google accounts, Microsoft Exchange, and Kerberos login.

GNOME 46 has added support for Microsoft OneDrive file storage, and support for the WebDAV (file access), CalDAV (calendar), and CardDAV (contacts) protocols. If users connect to a Microsoft 365 account, they will now see files stored in OneDrive in the files application as if they were local files and directories. Unfortunately, I had no success in setting up a connection to any of Fastmail's WebDAV, CalDAV, or CardDAV services.

Showcasing Flatpak

On top of the default applications included with a standard GNOME install, the project has a showcase of applications called GNOME Circle. There are several new applications in the Circle for GNOME 46. These new applications include a lightweight to-do application called Errands, a minimal audio player called Decibels, an image cropping and conversion tool called Switcheroo, and an ASCII-art generator called Letterpress, which is an amusing tool, and it does generate some impressive ASCII artwork. By default it generates images at a "resolution" of 100 characters, but can go up to 500 characters wide. Another new entry is Railway, an application that provides travel information for users who are fortunate enough to live in areas with decent train service. It is, sadly, an application that is of little use in Durham, North Carolina.

Aside from showcasing GNOME libraries and technologies, the Circle applications also move users in the direction of installing software from Flathub. GNOME's Software utility allows users to browse a curated list of software available on a Linux distribution. It is a front-end for PackageKit, and supports RPMs and Debian packages (depending, of course, on the underlying distribution) and Flatpaks.

All of the applications announced with GNOME 46 are only available in the Store application as Flatpaks, at least right now. Most of the older applications in GNOME Circle also seem to be available only as Flatpaks, though a handful of older applications like the Déjà Dup backup tool are still available as RPMs on Fedora.

Some applications advertise that they are only available as Flatpaks. Biblioteca, an offline viewer for GNOME's developer reference materials, warns that "Biblioteca is made possible by Flatpak. Only Flathub Biblioteca is supported." The same is true of the Workbench application for prototyping GTK and GNOME applications. The applications are open source (GPLv3) and nothing would prohibit a distribution from providing native packages, but it's interesting how emphatic the maintainers are about a Flatpak-only distribution model.

GNOME 46 includes a few other changes that seem designed to encourage Flatpak use over native distribution packages. The first is showing a verified badge, which indicates that the application on Flathub is published by the original developer or a "third party approved by the developer". The verification process requires developers to put a verification token on the responsible organization's web site or the source code hosting site (e.g., GitHub or GitLab) in a repository the developer owns, or the developer needs to be an administrator or owner of the organization or group that owns the repository.

For example, if a developer for Acme Corp wanted to verify an application they would need to place the token on the web at

    https://acme.com/.well-known/org.flathub.VerifiedApps.txt

The token is simply a unique string of characters like 00000000-aaaa-0000-aaaa-000000000000. An organization can include multiple verification tokens in the text file if it is responsible for more than one application.

The manual process would make it hard to get a verified badge on Flathub for malware that impersonates a well-known application from GNOME, KDE, Mozilla, Signal, and so on. It does not entirely block a would-be malware publisher from playing a long game and trying to sneak malware in under a unique application name, but Flathub does put up a few hurdles to that approach as well.

First, Flathub verification requires a one-time manual approval by one of the Flathub administrators when an application is first uploaded. Hubert Figuière, one of Flathub's administrators, said via chat that some applications are abandoned during the verification process and that requests are closed after a year of inactivity. Secondly, Flathub applications are usually (with some exceptions like Mozilla) not uploaded directly to Flathub. Source is submitted to Flathub with a manifest, and the application is built by Flathub. Users can build a Flatpak locally if they wish to verify that it matches the source code repository. In the case of proprietary applications, build logs are available via Flathub, but the binary source is not available.

Finally, Flathub's build validation checks for changes to an application's requested permissions or metadata. Flatpak applications are run in a sandbox that provides some isolation from other applications and restricts access to system resources. If an update changes the requested permissions, or tries to change the application's name, then it will be held for manual review and may be rejected.

A verified application will have a blue check mark on its page in the Software application in GNOME. By sticking to verified software, users should be less likely to install anything malicious on their system. GNOME 46 makes this even easier by adding an option to only display software from verified developers. The downside to this is that Software only displays applications available via Flathub—it doesn't even display software from Fedora's standard repositories as verified.

GNOME also nudges users toward placing more trust in Flatpaks in its Settings application. In the Apps settings page, users can manage their applications' sandbox permissions, such as whether an application can send notifications or receive and send system search results. When looking at settings for an application that is installed as an RPM, Settings shows a blue bar underneath the window title that says "App is not sandboxed", with a small info button to the side.

If the user clicks this to learn more, then Settings helpfully informs them that application settings cannot be enforced for applications that are not sandboxed. It does not tell the user what sandboxing is, however, or if it is something the user can enable. A significant number of GNOME users will probably intuit that this means that the application is not installed as a Flatpak, but many others are likely to be confused. A pointer to better documentation, and perhaps a recommendation for an equivalent Flatpak, would be an improvement here. Well, it would be an improvement if one considers Flatpak a better application-packaging method than RPMs or Debian packages.

Flatpak, as a format, has some interesting features and provides convenience. But one of its trade-offs is that an application does not go through the rigorous packaging process that an application must go through to be in a Linux distribution's repository. In short, many Linux users have come to trust that software in their favorite distribution's repository has been fully vetted. Removing the distribution vendor or project from that process may be more expedient, but it has a number of downsides in terms of actual verification and examination of software.

Libadwaita 1.5

Another change in GNOME 46 is the update to Libadwaita 1.5. Adwaita is GNOME's "design language", and Libadwaita is the GTK 4 library that implements GNOME's human interface guidelines (HIG). Libadwaita is the library developers want if they are trying to develop an application that looks and feels like part of GNOME.

The big change in 1.5 is adaptive dialogs, which are dialogs that are attached to an application's main window. When a user opens the preferences for their GNOME application that uses Libadwaita 1.5, that dialog won't be a separate window.

GNOME developer Alice Mikhaylenko wrote about the rationale for the change in detail, but the primary goal is to improve support for applications on mobile devices where a separate dialog box does not make sense. On the desktop, it is debatable whether this is an improvement or not. As implemented right now, the dialog doesn't show up when tabbing between windows or even on the thumbnail for a window. So if a user opens the preferences for Letterpress, switches to another window, it effectively disappears if the user is expecting to see it when switching applications. It would be interesting to see how it works on a GNOME mobile device, but there are few such systems readily available.

Getting closer

Users have been looking for Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) support from GNOME for some time, and the project accepted a freeze extension to get the work done in time to land in GNOME 46. In a nutshell, VRR allows a device to adjust its refresh rate to match the frame rate of the video source. This is a particularly interesting feature for gaming, since the frames per second can fluctuate wildly while playing.

VRR support has required a great deal of work and testing over the years, not just in GNOME but also in Wayland. The good news is that it is now available in GNOME 46. The bad news is that it is an experimental feature at present, which means that users should temper expectations when trying it out. VRR can be toggled on with a gsettings command to enable the option to turn on VRR in settings:

    $ gsettings set org.gnome.mutter experimental-features "['variable-refresh-rate']"

I say "should" because VRR is not available with any combination of hardware that I've tried, including a gaming monitor that supports AMD FreeSync. Now that the VRR support is more widely available, though, it gives me hope that things will work in the not-so-distant future.

Extensions

The Extensions application has been retooled in this release as well. It features an upgrade assistant that checks compatibility with recent versions of GNOME to see if installed extensions are compatible with a newer (or older) release. This is useful to run before upgrading, and a little depressing to run afterward. One of the downsides to a new GNOME release is finding, once again, that some (or many) extensions don't work with the new release yet. In this case, six of the ten extensions on my system were unsupported, though one (ddterm) had an update available. Dash to Dock, Tray Icons Reloaded, WinTile, gTile, and Background Logo were all listed as unsupported.

This is such a common problem that the project has a page in the Guide to JavaScript for GNOME. The page explains why extensions break or stop working, why GNOME resumed version validation with GNOME 40, and how developers can avoid breakage by sticking to approved APIs or writing an application instead of an extension.

It is not hard to understand why the project would prefer that users and developers stick to the straight and narrow path of approved ways to extend and work with the desktop. And yet, users and developers keep trying to adapt GNOME to their needs and continue to find it frustrating. For many users, GNOME is almost perfect for their needs, with one or two exceptions. Extensions are often the only way to close the gap between almost perfect and perfect; or, at least, as close to perfect as one might manage with a desktop. Perhaps one day, GNOME and extension developers will manage to meet in the middle so that users can run the latest GNOME release and enjoy their favorite extensions too.

Overall, GNOME 46 is a solid release with quite a few improvements, and it's likely to be a little bit nicer by the time it lands in stable Linux releases. The upcoming Fedora 40 and Ubuntu 24.04 releases will have GNOME 46 by default, and it is already in Arch Linux and openSUSE Tumbleweed repositories.



(Log in to post comments)

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 18:46 UTC (Tue) by saladin (subscriber, #161355) [Link]

As someone who uses GNOME mobile on my smartphone, I'm glad to see that work is being done to better support such devices. My experience is that GNOME programs have the best support for that environment than any other traditional Linux DE.

That said, GNOME is a desktop environment first and foremost, and nothing should degrade the experience for the vast majority of its users. The same goes for the push for Flatpaks.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 17:42 UTC (Wed) by Kluge (subscriber, #2881) [Link]

One of the last things I want from a desktop environment is for them to start deciding how I manage my software.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 12:58 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> One of the last things I want from a desktop environment is for them to start deciding how I manage my software.

...So you're saying that you always/only manually compile, install, and launch all of your software from the command line, including the desktop environment itself?

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 20:56 UTC (Wed) by rgb (subscriber, #57129) [Link]

I use Gnome on a Surface Go 2 tablet. Aside from a few glitches with the on-screen-keyboard it's a joy to use.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 18:55 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> GNOME developer Alice Mikhaylenko wrote about the rationale for the change in detail, but the primary goal is to improve support for applications on mobile devices where a separate dialog box does not make sense

Mobile obsession did so much damage to the Linux UI, while resulting in zero additional adoption.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 19:39 UTC (Tue) by gioele (subscriber, #61675) [Link]

> Mobile obsession did so much damage to the Linux UI, while resulting in zero additional adoption.

The problematic obsession is not the one with Mobile UI, but with _convergent_ Desktop/Tablet/Mobile UIs.

It's OK to have graphic toolkits provide both desktop widgets and mobile widgets. It's also OK to have a single binary that runs in a multitude of resolutions and form factors (turning many `#ifdef` into `if`). What is not OK is to use the same UI paradigm for all these resolutions and form factors.

For example, hiding menus behind the hamburger button may be OK on UI displayed on a 5-inch display to be used on the go, but it is an additional and unnecessary cognitive burden for an UI used by a stationary user in front of their 13- to 30-inch display. Same goes for buttons on titlebars or hyper-focused interactions with 10 possible actions, but only two buttons.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 19:45 UTC (Tue) by intelfx (subscriber, #130118) [Link]

> For example, hiding menus behind the hamburger button may be OK on UI displayed on a 5-inch display to be used on the go, but it is an additional and unnecessary cognitive burden for an UI used by a stationary user in front of their 13- to 30-inch display. Same goes for buttons on titlebars or hyper-focused interactions with 10 possible actions, but only two buttons.

I typically find that the "hamburgers" tend to replace actions available through window menu bars rather than immediately-available buttons, so the total click count rarely changes. On the contrary, the cognitive load tends to _decrease_ because now you have a single point of entry rather than a smattering of menus that forces you to play a guessing game every time you want to do something (was it under "Edit"? No... maybe "Tools"? Again no... Oh, this app put its settings under "File", how nice).

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 10:40 UTC (Wed) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

Try kasts or alligator from plasma. They work quite well on desktop and mobile in my opinion.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 19:42 UTC (Tue) by cesarb (subscriber, #6266) [Link]

> Mobile obsession did so much damage to the Linux UI, while resulting in zero additional adoption.

Not just the Linux UI, several of the more controversial changes to the Windows UI have also been attributed to trying to match mobile devices (and AFAIK, it resulted in zero additional adoption for them; the Windows phone is dead).

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 21:26 UTC (Tue) by gb (subscriber, #58328) [Link]

This is actually most annoying in open source software, that instead of doing something on it's own, people trying to mimic Windows... Had to switch to xfce, which is amazing in keeping and improving classing UI with proper support of all amazing ideas to have UI for professionals.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 21:32 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> This is actually most annoying in open source software, that instead of doing something on it's own, people trying to mimic Windows...

That's funny; GNOME has been repeatedly excoriated because it is doing something on its own instead of mimicing someone else.

I'm talking as much about G1->G2 as I am about G3+.

> Had to switch to xfce, which is amazing in keeping and improving classing UI with proper support of all amazing ideas to have UI for professionals.

...You do realize that xfce is far more of a Windows mimic than either modern Gnome or KDE Plasma?

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 21:45 UTC (Tue) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Maybe XFCE is a "classic" Windows mimic... but that's a good thing. At least, it's what I like about it. I know that upgrading XFCE is not going to make drastic changes to the UI... something I have more than a decade of muscle memory invested in.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 23:28 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> I know that upgrading XFCE is not going to make drastic changes to the UI... something I have more than a decade of muscle memory invested in.

...It's worth mentioning that this also applies to the current Gnome desktop -- It's been over a decade since Gnome 3.0 was released, and there haven't been any drastic changes since then either.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 13:30 UTC (Thu) by khim (subscriber, #9252) [Link]

> It's been over a decade since Gnome 3.0 was released, and there haven't been any drastic changes since then either.

Technically that's true, but because Gnome 3.0 was such a disaster with it's “radically improved” design for many users it's still new because they are brought to it, kicking and screaming, when some of apps they love stop working with other DEs.

Ironically enough GNOME's biggest weakness there was precisely because it's free software and people could just use older versions instead of switching.

They couldn't pull the trick that Apple or Microsoft (or Google on phones) are regularly pulling and simply forcibly declare that “it's new way or no way”… this makes transition a bit less painful but much, much, MUCH longer.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 15:43 UTC (Thu) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Does anyone have figures (estimates, whatever) for the share of users of DEs on Linux? I wonder how many switched from GNOME to other DEs with the 3.0 pain.... Certainly, I switched to MATE (i.e., I basically remained on GNOME 2), and others will have gone to Cinnamon.

Clearly, GNOME 3 created enough momentum away from it to sustain MATE at least.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 19:19 UTC (Thu) by Karellen (subscriber, #67644) [Link]

Does anyone have figures (estimates, whatever) for the share of users of DEs on Linux?

If you check any of the Linux subreddits that aren't overtly technical in nature (e.g. desktop/newbies/support/distro subs) they'll normally have someone post a poll asking what desktop everyone is using reasonably commonly.

There's going to be a fair amount of selection bias in the responders, and therefore in the results, based on general reddit demographics, but also based on the subreddit focus, so take it (along with everything else on reddit) with a grain of salt.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 19:31 UTC (Thu) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

"Does anyone have figures (estimates, whatever) for the share of users of DEs on Linux?"

Accurate ones? No. :-)

I would love to see that information if it exists, but when you have so many popular Linux distributions with multiple desktop offerings + the fact that people (like me) use more than one, and the Linux audience when GNOME 3 was introduced has changed since then... (hopefully larger, but also some people went to macOS or Windows, some people who used macOS or Windows came to Linux...) -- I think this would be a very heavy lift to even approach any kind of accuracy.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Mar 29, 2024 2:15 UTC (Fri) by douglasbagnall (subscriber, #62736) [Link]

> "Does anyone have figures (estimates, whatever) for the share of users of DEs on Linux?"
>
> Accurate ones? No. :-)

One of the inaccurate sources would be https://popcon.debian.org/stable/by_inst -- `grep -oP 'task-\w+-desktop\s+\d+'` (with some further selection) says:

task-gnome-desktop 27929
task-kde-desktop 12499
task-xfce-desktop 12470
task-cinnamon-desktop 5748
task-mate-desktop 4969
task-lxde-desktop 3365
task-lxqt-desktop 2591

Some of the obvious caveats are 1, not everyone uses Debian stable; 2, nobody knows how many of them install popcon; 3, it is entirely possible to have a task-*-desktop installed and not use it; 4, it is also possible to use a desktop without having the 'task' package installed (this is what I do).

To estimate how many people might be using a desktop environment without installing the 'task' package, we can compare other packages that seem indicative:

cinnamon-desktop-data 7569
xfce4-settings 15165
xfce4 14751
gnome-desktop3-data 45004

which makes it seem like *most* Debian stable desktop users who have popcon installed use the task selectors to install desktops, but perhaps 10-40% don't.

Also, it looks like people (or the dependency graph) pick and choose the good bits:

gnome-keyring 60570

I suspect Gnome might be over-represented because the installer leans toward it by default, but who knows.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Mar 29, 2024 8:18 UTC (Fri) by karkhaz (subscriber, #99844) [Link]

"Does anyone have figures (estimates, whatever) for the share of users of DEs on Linux?"
Another source of information is the Arch linux package stats, which shows data over time for e.g. desktop environments. Same caveats as for Debian popcon apply. Plasma appears to have become more popular than GDE around 2017. I was slightly surprised to see that i3 has more installations than sway. Sway was installed on more machines until December 2022, when a large number of i3 installations were reported

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 4, 2024 19:33 UTC (Thu) by h2 (guest, #27965) [Link]

I'm not surprised at all. I run i3 on my laptops and figured I'd try sway on one of them last month.

I can tell you one thing, without any doubt: the guys who do sway, despite saving the entire ecosystem for Wayland by creating wlroots library, have no idea what made i3 great, which was: fantastic docs, website, man page. While I have not looked at sway's code, I did look at i3's, and it was fantastic, discipline of i3 project is second to none.

Sway man page to my amazement was basically empty, no content. And sway's claim that it is a drop in replacement for i3, including using i3config if detected, is simply false, it's not, it doesn't even use same syntax for various features, took me a few hours to get most of the stuff running to be similar to i3. It is similar, however, but not realistic since you have to change so much to make it work.

I moved to i3 because I was incredibly impressed by their docs, their man page, which follows the OpenBSD idea that a man page should be complete and answer all questions if you are offline. Sway is only similar to i3 in form, not content. I am going to keep using it in order to run at least one physical wayland install, useful for development and testing, since my demands are very low, but it does not at all surprise me to see that sway is below i3, that's where it deserves to be until they finish the hard work that makes i3 great.

I was heavily influenced by i3's project attitude towards documentation, and try to emulate that completeness, particularly in man pages and other tools conveying information to users about the program.

But I am profoundly grateful to the sway team for making their wayland compositor library fully open to the world, and taking the time to make it be universal, not just for their sway window manager, which is a huge amount of work. I don't think many people out there not familiar with wayland actually understand how extremely important that action is and was, since rather than having endless compositors to debug, now we have only the main ones, kwin, gnome, enlightenment, and wlroots, more or less. Still random compositor projects out there, but that's the main ones in reality now. Xfce is using wlroots in their early wayland compositor work, there's even an attempt to use wlroots as kde compositor instead of kwin.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 10:57 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Thanks for pointing out that Xfce are working on Wayland support.

I do hope though that someone fixes up whatever the issues are that prevent Xwayland from acting completely transparently as an X11 server for existing X11 DEs. And/or that Mate gains native Wayland support. But.. failing those, Xfce on Wayland is hopefully another option.

Yay Desktop Linux and the regular complete-but-never-compatible-wheel-re-engineeering (fixing the lumps at X,Y & Z degrees; while adding new lumps at A,B,C and D degrees!).

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 11:05 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

The only reason you can't run a rootful Xwayland as an X11 server for an existing X11 DE is that you need an underlying Wayland compositor to run Xwayland on. You can already run Xwayland :9 -decorate inside an existing Wayland session to get an X11 server that runs entirely inside a decorated Wayland window, and in which you can run an X11 DE, and you can omit -decorate and add -fullscreen if you want that Wayland window to be full-screen, undecorated.

The trouble is that when people talk about "Xwayland … acting completely transparently as an X11 server for existing X11 DEs", they generally mean "Xwayland without a Wayland compositor", and that's not possible.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 11:13 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Seems to me that should be fixed, before any distro should consider deprecating Xorg.

I still like to run WindowMaker sometimes.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 11:18 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

You can run WindowMaker inside a rootful Xwayland today, atop a Wayland compositor; either inside a window on GNOME, KDE, or whatever else you use as your Wayland session, or fullscreen on top of your Wayland session.

The thing that nobody is willing to put time into is using something like wlroots to run an "empty" Wayland session whose only reason to exist is to let you run fullscreen Xwayland instances for running an X11 DE under. Other than that, all the pieces exist, and it just needs someone who wants to run X11 DEs on Xwayland (rather than porting them to Wayland) to step up and write the needed code.

Or, that same person could decide that they're going to step up and start maintaining the Xfree86 code within X.org, so that you can run a direct-to-hardware X11 server instead of Xwayland atop Wayland. That's a necessary component of keeping the non-Wayland subset of Xorg in distros; someone keeping the codebase in good shape.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 11:43 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Yes, I've done the former. Obviously though, I mean the latter. Having XWayland basically run like Xorg, offering the whole screen for the X11 environment. Transparently, so the user can't even tell.

That seems like it would allow the Xorg server graphics stuff - which apparently the devs hate - to be superceded by Wayland graphics (which more or less the same Xorg devs created, right?) /today/. And provide a seamless transition to Wayland, today.

It's strange it isn't done, but instead developers are trying to push users down a much less seamless transition path.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 12:03 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

The problem with the hardware Xserver stuff is that nobody wants to maintain it, it's got all sorts of dark corners (some of it is pre-ANSI C, still), and everybody who cares about code quality has already moved onto DEs that have working Wayland compositors, or is using something like Weston and running an existing X11 DE underneath Xwayland, non-transparently.

Fundamentally, this is the problem - the hardware code isn't "hated", it's just that nobody is maintaining it, and if it stops compiling, has serious bugs (security relevant or not), or is otherwise not usable in future, nobody is offering to fix it. And that has the distros nervous, because they don't want to be shipping potentially unfixable code.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 12:47 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Ack. That's exactly what I was speaking to.

The graphics hardware stuff in Xorg Xserver I gather is not liked. And that would be the /easiest/ to obsolete, simply by having XWayland be able give a full X11 root window of the entire screen. Then you could transparently run your X11 DEs in XWayland with Wayland driving the hardware. Right?

And that code in Xorg can die.

It's just strange the people who want that code to die aren't offering this obvious, seamless transition path.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 13:13 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

They are offering a seamless transition path to the users they care about - GNOME and KDE. All the other DEs are refusing to work on this, and saying that they expect Someone Else to fix the problem for them.

And that's the fundamental issue; the hardware support code in Xorg was only maintained because Oracle Solaris and Red Hat Enterprise Linux maintained it as part of their respective GNOME stacks. They have seamless transition paths for their users from GNOME/X11 to GNOME/Wayland, and have stopped maintaining it; this is exposing that no-one from the other DEs is maintaining the Xfree86 code base inside Xorg, but are assuming that Someone Else will maintain that code path for them.

At some point, this entitlement to free support of your dependencies comes to an end - and at that point, you either need to implement a transition path yourself, or step up to the plate and support the things you depend upon.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 15:04 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

The developers who were working on the graphics code - in Xorg DDX before and Wayland now - are surely not the GNOME/KDE devs?

And even if they are, surely - if they really want to hurry the demise of the Xorg DDX code - they'd be happier to have the other X11 DEs run on top of Wayland via XWayland, than continue with that DDX code? Make it make sense... :)

And yeah, I'm being entitled here I guess. Least, I'm hoping to freeload for a bit longer.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 15:10 UTC (Fri) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Though, if there's someone out there who knows the XWayland code and thinks they could implement what I was talking about reasonably quickly, I will do so at reasonable engineering consultancy rates (e.g., order days of coding and testing). Ping me if that's you ;)

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 5, 2024 15:22 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

The devs working on the graphics code in DDXes now just work in Mesa - they've dropped the DDXes a while ago. This is why Glamor exists, to provide a DDX that's backed only by an OpenGL driver (and which is used by Xwayland, too, so is maintained by Red Hat and Oracle people for people running X11 apps on GNOME). The remaining chunks of Xfree86 code were being worked on by people who were paid to do it so that GNOME continued to work; they've moved onto other things now that their employers don't care about GNOME/X11.

And because all the people who care have moved onto other things, nobody cares about the demise of the Xorg DDX code, bar some distros who are scared that Xserver will have a security flaw that needs fixing, and nobody willing to roll up their sleeves and fix the code. Previously, Oracle and Red Hat provided that by paying people to work on this so that GNOME/X11 worked. Now that GNOME doesn't need an X11 server, those people aren't being paid to work on the Xserver code base, and they've moved onto something else because that code is so horrible that people won't work on it unless paid.

Some people who are trying to get Someone Else to carry the maintenance burden of Xorg DDX code portray this as "they want to hurry the demise of the Xorg DDX code", but it's simpler than that - nobody cares enough to become the Someone Else who works on that code for the benefit of X11 DEs. It used to be the case that Red Hat and Oracle cared if there was an exploitable flaw in Xorg DDX code, since that would result in their paid product containing an exploitable flaw in GNOME; now, they don't, and Someone has to step up to the plate for WindowMaker, XFCE, Cinnamon, Trinity and any other DE that depends on X11, or accept that sooner or later, there will be an exploitable flaw in the X server where distros will fix it by removing the X server completely.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 8, 2024 9:52 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Sure, I already understood that.

But people _are_ working on Wayland, and the graphics libraries that underpin it, right? And someone is working on XWayland, right? So... could someone not add a mode to XWayland to let it present a full screen, undecorated, unmanaged-by-any-wayland-compositor window to X11?

Cause, wouldn't that allow all that unmaintained, unloved, old XFree86^WXorg DDX code to be set aside, and allow seamless transition of the user-facing X11 components (WM, clients) to then run on top of that /maintained/ graphics stack?

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 8, 2024 9:55 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

I.e., I understand your point, but I disagree the user-facing side of X11 can be removed any time soon. However, the graphics hardware side /could/ be, if someone just makes XWayland a little more capable.

Early on in Wayland, it was my understanding that XWayland would basically be the transition strategy - starting as a seamless, full-root-window server. But that, strangely, never happened.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 8, 2024 10:16 UTC (Mon) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

Xwayland, by design, takes in X11 protocol from its clients, and uses Wayland protocol to render the X11 requests in Wayland window(s) managed by Wayland compositors. It has no ability to present anything on the display itself; it relies crucially on a Wayland compositor doing all the hardware interaction for it.

In this respect, it's the same as Xephyr, XDarwin, X11.app and Xming - it acts as an X11 server for its clients, but implements it by talking to a different window system on the other side, and not to hardware.

It's an essential part of the transition process, since it means that when you move to a Wayland DE, you don't need to throw away all your X11 clients - you can use Xwayland to run them within your Wayland DE, and can use Xwayland in either rootful or rootless mode to run those clients in a way that suits you.

The bit that's missing is an interface between Wayland protocol and what hardware supplies; we call that a "Wayland compositor", and its job is to listen to Wayland clients (including Xwayland), and output commands to the hardware (e.g. via Linux kernel DRM drivers). That's what needs implementing, and that needs to exist outside Xwayland.

The alternative route, which you seem to be describing, is to create a brand new hardware-aware X server, dropping the xfree86 DDX code, using modern mechanism like Wayland does for rendering, and that has its own hardware access code similar to a Wayland compositor. But, unlike a simple full-screen Wayland compositor (which remains useful without Xwayland for things like games consoles), this is very much tied to keeping X11 servers working.

Indeed, if you really want to keep X11 DEs going, you should be able to run gamescope as your Wayland compositor (ignoring its gaming features), and use Xwayland as the X11 implementation.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 23, 2024 7:14 UTC (Tue) by daenzer (subscriber, #7050) [Link]

You seem to find it strange that nobody else has done what you think should be done.

FWIW, Xwayland should already have all the functionality needed to get something like that off the ground. What's left is mostly integration work outside of it, creating a session with a minimal Wayland compositor and non-rootless Xwayland running fullscreen.

Bad estimates for the share of users of DEs on Linux

Posted Apr 14, 2024 23:17 UTC (Sun) by ceplm (subscriber, #41334) [Link]

Few comments:

1. If you have an empty sway(1) man page, then the problem is with your distribution, not with the sway project. We (OpenSUSE/Linux) have pretty neat man pages (see https://manpages.opensuse.org/Tumbleweed/sway/sway.1.en.html). And there is also https://github.com/swaywm/sway/wiki which is not empty either.

2. If you have problems with sway’s incompatibility with i3 syntax, then it is a bug, and it should be filed in https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues. It should work.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 19:44 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

GNOME 3 forced me to switch to XFCE and then to macOS, once XFCE broke down one time too many. Before that, I'd been using GNOME2 for more than 5 years.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 13:11 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Clearly, GNOME 3 created enough momentum away from it to sustain MATE at least.

Keep in mind that Gnome3 didn't land in a vacuum. Ubuntu in particular switched from G2 to their in-house Unity about the same time as the initial G3 release, and due to the relative popularity of Ubuntu in those days, I'd wager far more people used (and reacted badly to) Unity than "true" Gnome3..

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 13:32 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

No. The "true" GNOME absolutely was the trigger.

If anything, Unity was a pretty conservative change compared to G2.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 14:03 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> If anything, Unity was a pretty conservative change compared to G2.

"Change the look/feel to be much more like MacOS than Windows" is not a "pretty conservative change"

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 15:58 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Yes, and it was a pretty conservative change.

Need I remind you, that GNOME3 in its initial form had dynamic desktops that completely upended all kinds of workflows? It introduced "Activities" view instead, made the top bar nearly useless, and removed pretty much all possible customizations.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 15:14 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

> I'd wager far more people used (and reacted badly to) Unity than "true" Gnome3

That seems _very_ unlikely, Ubuntu advertised and branded "Unity" desktop pretty heavily as an alternative to GNOME, so anyone who cared either knew they were using Ubuntu and didn't think about GNOME, or knew they were using Unity and not GNOME3. This seems like an attempt to recontexualize the criticism of GNOME3 by creating a "no true Scotsman" scenario. I'm not sure that people really disliked Unity, my assumption is that Canonical doesn't have the resources to maintain a whole desktop environment on their own, so they needed to share resources with GNOME to be able to ship anything at all.

Personally I like GNOME3 and the aggressive commitment to visual simplicity, but lets not pretend that other opinions don't exist or are laughably mistaken.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 19:32 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> That seems _very_ unlikely, Ubuntu advertised and branded "Unity" desktop pretty heavily as an alternative to GNOME, so anyone who cared either knew they were using Ubuntu and didn't think about GNOME, or knew they were using Unity and not GNOME3.

It's both -- Unity first landed in Ubuntu 10.10, initially as a "lightweight netbook environment", with G2 still on "regular" desktops.

Gnome 3.0 landed six months later, in April of 2011. Fedora 15 was the first distro to formally ship it (May 2011)

Ubuntu completely dropped G2 in favor of Unity-for-everyone with their 11.10 release and due to the way they implemented Unity (by making incompatible changes to core gnome libraries/components) made it impossible for G3+ and Unity to coexist on the same system. This is the same era in which Canonical went down many other partially-baked NIH/EEE rabbit holes aiming to lock folks into "Ubuntu", as opposed to "Linux"; Nearly all were ultimately abandoned when the various wider developer communities refused to sign CLAs or otherwise participate. And Canonical realized it was a lot more profitable to not compete with all of their upstreams...)

Meanwhile, Mate saw its first release in August of 2011, essentially a fork of G2's final codebase. Cinnamon saw its first release in December 2011, recreating the G2 look/feel on top of the G3 codebase. AFAIK they are both actively developed and are packaged for major distros for all users that care enough to do so. Yet neither has more than a fraction of the install base as stock gnome... because most users simply don't care.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 13:29 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Clearly, GNOME 3 created enough momentum away from it to sustain MATE at least.

(apologies for a second reply)

It's also worth mentioning that Mate and Cinnamon both heavily rely on upstream GNOME's technical/library stack, and only really focus on the user-visible shell itself.

(And IIRC even XFCE makes heavy use of upstream GNOME-developed libraries and other components...)

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 0:34 UTC (Wed) by intelfx (subscriber, #130118) [Link]

> Maybe XFCE is a "classic" Windows mimic

Ah yes, "there's no true Scotsman other than those whom I designate as such" :-)

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 22:12 UTC (Tue) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

> That's funny; GNOME has been repeatedly excoriated because it is doing something on its own instead of mimicing someone else

I don't think that's right; most of the criticism I've seen has been Gnome changing things that worked with something new.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 23:39 UTC (Tue) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> That's funny; GNOME has been repeatedly excoriated because it is doing something on its own instead of mimicing someone else
> I don't think that's right; most of the criticism I've seen has been Gnome changing things that worked with something new.

....That's a distinction without a difference; either way, Gnome is _still_ being criticized for doing their own thing instead of essentially mimcing MS Windows circa 2000/XP during the Gnome2 era. Which it was heavily criticized for as well, incidentally.

It's almost like people are going to complain no matter what you do, so you might as well build the software you want.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 7:45 UTC (Wed) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

> ....That's a distinction without a difference;

No, it's an entirely different issue.

> It's almost like people are going to complain no matter what you do, so you might as well build the software you want.

If Gnome wants more market-share they need to do a more sophisticated analysis than "got complaint, yes/no?"

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 13:11 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> If Gnome wants more market-share they need to do a more sophisticated analysis than "got complaint, yes/no?"

Oh, you mean Gnome should not take approach that works exceptionally well for Apple and Google?

Arguing that Oranges should become more like Cashews to appeal to people who like tree nuts is specious; they are radically different in what they intentionally appeal to (and their nutritional makeup) and both can coexist just fine in the greater ecosystem.

You don't like what Gnome is doing; that's fine, there are _plenty_ of alternatives. Including MS Windows -- which is simultaneously held up as the gold standard what everyone should emulate, and as the pinnacle of everything we shouldn't.

Blindly mimicing what everyone else is doing isn't how _any_ of the dominant platforms got that way. Including Windows.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 14:27 UTC (Wed) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

> Oh, you mean Gnome should not take approach that works exceptionally well for Apple and Google?

No, that's exactly what Gnome should do, but they're not.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 15:13 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

>> Oh, you mean Gnome should not take approach that works exceptionally well for Apple and Google?
>No, that's exactly what Gnome should do, but they're not.

... so you're telling us that Apple and Google don't arbitrarily change UI elements (and plenty of other things under the hood) with *every* *single* *release*, and don't tell folks to effectively pound sand if they don't like it?

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 15:42 UTC (Wed) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

No, I'm saying you need to do a more sophisticated analysis of what they are doing. And especially note the difference to how it was earlier when they weren't incumbent.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 16:19 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> No, I'm saying you need to do a more sophisticated analysis of what they are doing. And especially note the difference to how it was earlier when they weren't incumbent.

So... how about you apply that same sophisticated analysis to what Gnome has done?

(Especially noting the difference that having actual non-exclusionary F/OSS competition brings?)

Keep in mind here that the person I was initially responding to was lamenting the lack of originality (versus simple mimicry) in F/OSS offerings. The responses to GNOME doing just that (with v2 and especially v3), including your responses on this thread, demonstrate the absurdity of that statement.

*every* platform out there (commercial or F/OSS) holds strong opinions on its user interaction paradigm. Sometimes those opinions change, and drastically at that, from one major release to the next. For example, in the past 30 years, The Windows UI paradigm has seen at least three major overhauls (Win3->Win95->Win8) with more minor/evolutionary ones with each successive release. Gnome has done something similar (G1->G2->G3). XFCE has gone through at least two, as have Android and MacOS. Meanwhile, the first-party software from the commercial platform vendors themselves is usually by far the worst offender when it comes to violating the native platform UI guidelines -- take-it-all-or-leave-it UX-is-everything Apple is probably the worst (serial!) offender, and they're routinely lauded for this attitude.

So, I stand by what I wrote; Gnome has been heavily criticized for both mimicry and originality; they're going to get grief no matter what they do. If you want "mass appeal" just do a 1:1 clone of Windows (or maybe Android) , or better yet just use Genuine Windows (or Android) to begin with. Or Gnome can instead build the software/environment they want, and the folks who like it can use it, and everyone else can freely choose to use something else.

(And if you genuinely don't have a choice in the matter about using Gnome, it's because your employer mandates it along with any number of other things you give up in exchange for a paycheck. Welcome to Life.)

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 18:13 UTC (Wed) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

Don't worry on my behalf, I'm not being forced to use Gnome or anything I don't want. I'm fact, what I'm using is not something I'd recommend for non-technical users. However I'd be happy if non-technical users could reasonably be expected to use Linux. This is why I'm unhappy about Gnome's life-choices.(and also same for KDE)

> So, I stand by what I wrote; Gnome has been heavily criticized for both mimicry and originality;

Gnome is getting a wide spectrum of criticism, you'll be eternally confused as long as you shoehorn these into just two options.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 13:04 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Gnome is getting a wide spectrum of criticism, you'll be eternally confused as long as you shoehorn these into just two options.

Of course it gets more than that, even from within its own developer camp. But you know what? So does *every other piece of software* that's used by more than a handful of people.

If you're design something to operate a certain way, of course you're going to ignore the feedback that demands you operate differently. Gnome is far from unique in this respect.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 15:12 UTC (Fri) by malmedal (subscriber, #56172) [Link]

> If you're design something to operate a certain way, of course you're going to ignore the feedback that demands you operate differently.

Much of the feedback I'm seeing seems motivated to help Gnome achieve its stated goals. I'm sure the criticism will abate if Gnome clarifies what these are.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 17:00 UTC (Wed) by somlo (subscriber, #92421) [Link]

> It's almost like people are going to complain no matter what you do

The problem is that, just like Mozilla in a different context, Gnome developers seem to be chasing the mythical user who is:

1. discerning enough to be fed up with the (two?) "mainstream" choices, but

2. clueless enough to still need and appreciate the overbearing, "mother knows best", "love it or leave it" attitude also exhibited by the (two?) mainstream offerings.

However, #1 and #2 above are largely mutually exclusive, and that's how many in the #1 category are complaining about being given the #2 treatment... :)

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 17:41 UTC (Wed) by Kluge (subscriber, #2881) [Link]

No one blames GNOME for doing something new. People blame GNOME for doing things that suit developers and not users. Emphasizing a good developer experience is essential (see how incredibly productive LibreOffice development has become), but UX decisions should focus on users, including existing user expectations.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 21:27 UTC (Wed) by gioele (subscriber, #61675) [Link]

> UX decisions should focus on users, including existing user expectations.

And should not focus on prospective new users at the expenses of existing users.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 12:56 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> No one blames GNOME for doing something new. People blame GNOME for doing things that suit developers and not users.

First, developers are users too.

Or are you genuinely complaining about low-level technical decisions like shell extensions are implemented in javsacript as opposed to C# or whatever?

Second, my anectdotal experience is that just-plain-office-drone-type-users pick up gnome 3 just fine with no handholding beyond gnome's builtin "welcome to gnome" tutorial. They all just use whatever is put in front of them. (And incidently, these same just-plain-users manage to get a non-locked-down Windows installation completely full of malware within days..)

It's the self-titled "power users" that are the complainers; not because it is too haaaaard to learn something new but because they want everything just the way they want it, with nothing changing except for the visible things they want to change. It's always upon the "Developers" to "nerd harder" to make exactly what these users want.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 15:30 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

This is becoming a tangent, but with GNOME it's far more likely to be in front of a nerd than an office drone, so while I do appreciate the commitment to design and simplicity, the user stories should maybe be weighted toward Developer/Operations workstations, without losing the usability that allows other office workers and home users to share in the experience. Know your audience.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 19:42 UTC (Fri) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> Know your audience.

....What makes you think GNOME doesn't "know their audience"?

In a sense this is actually a circular argument; Gnome's audience is the folks who like the approach that Gnome has taken for the past *fifteen years* [1]

Those that didn't like that approach forked G2 to create Mate, and G3 to create Cinnamon. Neither is anywhere near as popular as upstream G3.

[1] It's much older than that; there's a clear progression going back to the pre-G2 days.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 21:28 UTC (Fri) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Completely stagnant Linux desktop market share?

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 30, 2024 14:50 UTC (Sat) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link]

So GNOME should increase the desktop market share by… doing what the existing, hard core user base of Linux wants, as opposed to appealing to other, different user bases?

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 30, 2024 18:49 UTC (Sat) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> So GNOME should increase the desktop market share by… doing what the existing, hard core user base of Linux wants

You know, actually yes. Not annoying your _existing_ users is a good first step. When your adoption is driven by word-of-mouth and social networks and not through ads and marketing, alienating your core users will not help you at all.

The other stupid blunder was the belief that people will switch to GNOME because it's so much more different than everything else. Dynamic "Activities" were completely unlike any other environment (Windows or MacOS). Needless to say, it hadn't happened.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Apr 4, 2024 12:40 UTC (Thu) by DOT (guest, #58786) [Link]

Most actual users are not annoyed, or they would be using something else. Gnome 2 users who didn't like v3 have been annoyed for 12 years and don't seem to be happy enough with their new Mate/Cinnamon clone. It's not like anyone is forcing you to use Gnome; that's the whole point of free desktops.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Apr 4, 2024 16:42 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

> Most actual users are not annoyed, or they would be using something else.

Well, yes. I switched from GNOME to xfce and then to macOS. I know a couple of hardcore Linux people who went down the same route.

GNOME in later releases walked back most of the initial stupidity, and that also helped.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 19:26 UTC (Thu) by sramkrishna (subscriber, #72628) [Link]

I will also say that in terms of innovation - there is nothing interesting implementing someone else's design. What GNOME is doing is building from scratch a design forward desktop - they are learning and evolving designs which you don't see very often in open source projects. Plus, those designs are disseminated and critiqued and flamed or whatever. It's much harder process than just doing coding.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 19:21 UTC (Thu) by sramkrishna (subscriber, #72628) [Link]

I think this has more to do with web design than anything else. Web apps already support multiple types of devices. I think it's following that pattern more than anything else and GNOME follows those more IMHO.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 26, 2024 23:41 UTC (Tue) by larkey (subscriber, #104463) [Link]

I'm quite happy with the GNOME desktop, and I'm using it on desktop exclusively. But a big difference I noted: It sucks for people who use mice. It's not designed for keyboard+mice usage.

I use it as keyboard + trackpad, either built-in (laptop) or dedicated (desktop), although mostly keyboard only. And that works /amazing/. I don't care whether some things would require a few clicks if I have more screen estate, things are a bit more grouped together /if/ I can still reach everything directly through the keyboard.

And honestly, this paradigm makes sense to me. The mouse (outside of gaming) is kinda a dying thing. Most people nowadays use laptops and if they have a big screen -- they still use the laptop as input. And those who don't (like me) are often people who use the keyboard almost exclusively.

I think making dedicated trackpads more of a standard feature for offices would also be a good thing.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 7:54 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

I think most non-emacs nerds probably use the mouse most of the times.

And emacs nerds use emacs :D

I have no data but I think that the people who mostly use keyboard and yet don't mostly use shells aren't that many.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 11:47 UTC (Thu) by larkey (subscriber, #104463) [Link]

Oh, definitely, most people don't use the keyboard exclusively – but those people usually use a laptop with a touch pad for which GNOME is very well-suited. I totally admit that GNOME has depriorised mouse input they have improved on all the other fronts that

It's just the "mouse" as a physical pointing device that's getting less and less common. So GNOME is focusing on the biggest chunk of consumers (touchpad) + the power users (keyboard) and doesn't try to cater to completely everyone, by excluding the combination that's slowly dieing (keyboard+mouse).

I think that's a fair decision because it's hard to build something that everyone will enjoy.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 1:33 UTC (Fri) by Baughn (subscriber, #124425) [Link]

Do people actually use the touchpad on non-macs?

I can’t complain about mine, but well, I use a mac. Every time I bring it along to someone who doesn’t, they look at me funny for not hacking bright a mouse with me.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 1:54 UTC (Fri) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link]

Of course, why not? I've been using Trackpoint for decades, but in recent years my touchpad sees more usage. Two-finger scrolling, three-finger workplace and app switch are very comfortable.

My wife still uses Trackpoint, but it's getting harder for her. The scrollbars are getting smaller or disappear completely in some designs. And she insists on clicking on them. Not even using mouse wheel emulation (middle button + Trackpoint) :(

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 14:35 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

I use an ergonomic keyboard and trackball, I find an ordinary keyboard and laptop trackpad very unpleasant to use.

The disappearance of things like scroll bars and obvious ways to scroll is a real pain. And at work with gmail, I often have to export images in email because I can't find anyway of scrolling at all!

Cheers,
Wol

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 15:24 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

There was a long stretch where Apple was shipping top-of-the-line trackpads and drivers (from Synaptics I think) and most other vendors were shipping lower spec trackpads with worse drivers (eg using PS/2 mouse emulation) but I think most higher-end laptops are shipping trackpads and drivers (Precision Touchpad?) that are equivalent to what Apple uses. My Dell Precision work laptop touchpad seems to work as well as the MacBook Pro it replaced.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 22:53 UTC (Fri) by zblaxell (subscriber, #26385) [Link]

I can see why many people would have a history of bad touchpad experiences.

At one time I had a Macbook and a netbook, with vastly different sizes and configurations of touchpad. The Macbook's factory touchpad configuration was awesome if the touchpad is the size of a postage stamp, and the netbook's factory touchpad configuration was awesome if the touchpad is larger than a human hand. Both of these would have been intolerable without the Synaptics configuration tools to change the defaults.

For legacy reasons, the netbook default configuration carved up the touchpad into separate scrolling and clicking regions (even though the touchpad had dedicated buttons!), so there was no room left on the pad for moving the cursor around. Touching the device almost anywhere caused unintentional input. Moving the mouse across the screen to a small target without randomly clicking or scrolling something nearby was like a game of Operation--if the game of Operation deleted something important at random whenever you lost the game.

At the time, I was accustomed to the PC convention for larger (but not as large as Macbook) touchpads, so I wanted all the familiar separate scroll and click areas. The Macbook's huge configurable touchpad could easily accommodate all of them, as well as the missing buttons, and still have plenty of space left over for high-resolution, high-speed pointer movement, without using any multi-finger gestures.

Eventually I grew out of scrolling regions in favor of multi-finger gestures, and netbook manufacturers stopped supplying separate buttons, so now every touchpad gets the same configuration. I no longer know what the defaults are. Judging from what is printed on the touchpads these days (is that...a numeric keypad?), I'm certain I prefer ignorance.

These days I mostly use a mouse for CAD, but that's because I usually use a desktop workstation for CAD, and the mouse is still the norm on that hardware configuration. I don't do enough CAD to justify one of the more exotic input devices.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 2:04 UTC (Fri) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link]

What? This feels like a weird take. I use GNOME almost exclusively with a mouse, and have done for over 20 years. I don't find anything particularly difficult about it. It's certainly easier than using it with a trackpad.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Apr 2, 2024 12:23 UTC (Tue) by james (subscriber, #1325) [Link]

The only thing I find unfortunate about using Gnome with a mouse is using the dash (the pinned programs in the Activities overview): you have to go right to the top left of the screen for the Activities button, then down to the very bottom¹ for the dash. And I often use monitors in portrait mode.

With a laptop trackpad, you're more likely to use the super / Windows key to bring up the overview (it's right next to where your hands are).

Other than that, I too have been using Gnome since version 2 and am very content with it.

¹ In recent releases.

File Search

Posted Mar 26, 2024 23:44 UTC (Tue) by larkey (subscriber, #104463) [Link]

> If one wants GNOME to search, say, ~/src, then it's necessary to add ~/src specifically as a search location. Once configured to peek into the proper directories, search works quickly and well, but it's not intuitive to have to specify each subdirectory.

This is /probably/ motivated by lots of /huge/ .-directories. Arguably, those could be ignored by default, but IDK how the UX for that should be designed. In addition, the search directories are the classic XDG user directories which are also those on which the permissions for Flatpaks are designed. As such, the trend goes into having e.g., `~/src` be a subdirectory of `~/Documents`. If you want quick access, you can still add a symlink. I've grouped everything in the top-level XDG dirs and it has improved my home quite a lot.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 2:59 UTC (Wed) by PengZheng (subscriber, #108006) [Link]

One serious issue I encountered when using such sandboxed APPs is
https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/cant-access-rustup-documenta...

Does Flatpak suffer from the same issue?

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 3:19 UTC (Wed) by dilinger (subscriber, #2867) [Link]

As Gnome slowly transitions towards encouraging users to install sandboxed apps from a repository that they control, it makes me wonder if Debian should still have Gnome as the default desktop. It's one thing to pull extensions (Gnome extensions, Cinnamon extensions, Firefox extensions, etc) that run inside an existing process from an upstream-controlled repository. It's completely another for software to be recommending downloading entire standalone programs that don't necessarily satisfy the DFSG *instead of* the same Debian-packaged programs. Feels like a discussion worth having..

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 3:54 UTC (Wed) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

I hate GNOME UI with a passion, but moving to sandboxed apps is one of the better moves. It's pretty clear by now that the "single repo" model just doesn't scale.

IMO, Debian should embrace this model and build a trusted Flatpak repo where app updates go through the same Debian process as regular package updates.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 7:35 UTC (Wed) by rrolls (subscriber, #151126) [Link]

Please no.

I am a happy Debian MATE user.

GNOME imo is still as icky as it was when GNOME 3 came out and sent me back to Windows for YEARS.

And I don't want Flatpak anywhere near my devices.

Personally I think Debian are embarrassing themselves having GNOME as their default desktop, but I don't mind having to switch it to MATE in the installer. But I REALLY don't like the idea of having to install even one Flatpak to make a MATE system work.

To the Debian folk, you are doing absolutely brilliantly maintaining the apt/.deb system, and I am grateful. Please don't change.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 7:47 UTC (Wed) by mjg59 (subscriber, #23239) [Link]

Could you explain why? I understand concerns around Flatpak being used to distribute proprietary packages, but there's nothing preventing configuration of the client to ignore those.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 17:07 UTC (Wed) by smoogen (subscriber, #97) [Link]

My problems with flatpaks from flathub come down to a general level of 'been burnt too many times before' so need more things to establish basic trust.

0. How do I debug when things go wrong (application crashes, something writes over config files, etc?).
1. How do I reproduce that build? How was it built and how do I get the bits of the bits which built things
2. How do I get information on how to trust the build system and infrastructure?
o I trust Fedora because I spent too many years in its internals.
o I trust Debian because I have done a cursory audit of how Debian packages are built and how devs trust each other.
o RPM and deb have ways for me to verify things are built how and when they say they are.
3. How do I set up and run my own system if I really fall in love with flatpaks and need to take over because they aren't the cool kid anymore and various developers have moved on.

I expect that these and other questions which come up are answerable, but it is yet another system I need to know how to deal with when I am already embedded deeply in one and partially in another.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 18:28 UTC (Wed) by swilmet (subscriber, #98424) [Link]

I'm not entirely familiar with how to build flatpaks, but I have some experience with it, and I know that if I dig into the docs I can answer almost all your questions more or less easily.

Once you have built a GUI program that can be run from a terminal on Linux, it's not that hard to get it nicely integrated into the various desktops, with some freedesktop.org specs to follow (the *.desktop file, icons, etc), AppStream.

Flatpak is not a freedesktop.org standard (even if its name was initially xdg-app), but it comes as a solution for packaging needs (usually done by upstream developers themselves). Nowadays we see new small apps packaged as Flatpak only (initially), this is much easier than creating a deb, rpm, plus whatever other formats required for other distros.

If you want your app to be available to a wide audience, and quickly (i.e., not waiting that each distro package it), formats like Flatpak, Snap, etc are a solution.

If it makes the Linux desktops more popular, bringing more developers, making the platform more attractive, than I'm all for it.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 18:20 UTC (Thu) by dilinger (subscriber, #2867) [Link]

I didn't really mean to spur a pros/cons/passionate-feelings discussion about flatpak with my comment. I was merely pointing out the fact that third-party flatpaks aren't vetted by debian to be DFSG-compatible, and so it's not really appropriate for debian's default software to be encouraging installation of them.

Cyberax above asked about debian having a "trusted" flatpak repo, but that doesn't really make much sense due to the effort involved. Actually building things in debian is easy (so easy a computer can do it! 😃). The labor-intensive part is checking licenses, and making application integrate well with the rest of the distribution. Any trusted flatpak repo would likely need to have applications go through that same process (otherwise, why is it "trusted"?). At that point, you might as well throw it into a deb container format instead of flatpak. Or switch away from dpkg to flatpak.

I don't personally have strong feelings about flatpak either way; but much like, say, docker/podman images, I like to stick to sources that I trust. Maybe gnome's flatpak repo could become that for me personally, but for the debian project that would take some negotiation.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 12:19 UTC (Fri) by swilmet (subscriber, #98424) [Link]

Some collaboration would be needed between Debian and the Flatpak world.

The DFSG-compatible information could be added to Flathub packages, and Debian could create a downstream filter for Flathub (the filter would be configurable, of course).

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 7:59 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

Just 2 days ago a user came to IRC to ask for help because he'd downloaded something from flatpak and it didn't start.

I told him to install the regular .deb from the regular repository.

It might be a better user experience if things that are shipped by flatpak had some kind of automated test to at least check that it runs.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 11:01 UTC (Thu) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link]

So you did zero troubleshooting? Not very helpful.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 11:18 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

I don't even know how to report such a bug and to whom… At least I helped the person.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 12:20 UTC (Thu) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link]

You fixed one particular problem. Next time when they install a flatpak'd software, not available in the distro, and encounter similar problem, they will be at the starting point. Whereas troubleshooting and fixing the problem with first flatpak package would be better in the long term. Fishing rod, not fish.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 13:23 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

Or maybe they will never need it?

Or maybe they will need it and package it themselves, thus becoming contributor.

You are very critical of how I helped. Yet I don't recall you being there and helping more.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 13:38 UTC (Thu) by zdzichu (subscriber, #17118) [Link]

That's true. I wasn't there and I did nothing. You helped that user run application he wanted to run.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 13:25 UTC (Wed) by pizza (subscriber, #46) [Link]

> IMO, Debian should embrace this model and build a trusted Flatpak repo where app updates go through the same Debian process as regular package updates.

Fedora already does something along these lines, FWIW.

(Rather, it's more accurate to say that the flatpaks they produce are built using Fedora's existing RPMs, which already have to adhere to Fedora policies, like proper [license] review, complete corresponding offline source, no-internet-access-during-builds, etc...)

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 4:56 UTC (Thu) by ejona86 (subscriber, #43349) [Link]

I was interested in the sandboxing, but at present it still seems more like security theater. A substantial number of the permissions allow trivial escape from the sandbox and some permissions that allow escape or access to sensitive data aren't displayed to the user. The user is not given the proper information to accept an app's permissions when installing, and upgrades can add permissions pretty easily. The only thing the sandbox legitimately comes close to handling is reducing impact of vulnerable apps (e.g., "opening a malicous Office file"), but app permissions are so leaky, it is of questionable practical value today.

I dug into it earlier this month and recorded my findings in two blog posts.
https://ejona.ersoft.org/archive/2024/03/03/flatpak-perm-...

I do look forward to Pipewire webcam support to avoid --device=all, in that it is a step in the right direction and it will let some classes of apps have a useful sandbox. But overall the file handling clearly is not working, and thus there's really no sandbox except for outliers.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 23:16 UTC (Thu) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

Yes, Flatpacks are not particularly secure right now. However, they are a good practice to guide developers towards containerized applications that can't read random directories. It also protects against accidental "rm -Rf ~/ .cache" typos.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 10:57 UTC (Fri) by intelfx (subscriber, #130118) [Link]

> I was interested in the sandboxing, but at present it still seems more like security theater.

For better or worse, the free software ecosystem can't afford a "flag day". There is, by definition, no one who can place (and enforce!) such a demand on the entire ecosystem.

As such, it evolves in the only way it can: iteratively. What you call security theater is simply an iteration.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 14:19 UTC (Fri) by ejona86 (subscriber, #43349) [Link]

In my post I mention the benefit of allowing applications to add restrictions as they adapt to the sandbox. But don't show that to the user. The theater is mostly the UI in how permissions are displayed (or not!) and upgraded. Only a highly technical user can determine if the permissions are safe (and can't do it from the UI), and who knows the state after an upgrade. You can't trust the sandbox; you can only trust the publisher and reviewer.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 7:57 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

firejail has existed for years.

There is no reason why you can't sandbox binaries that come from .deb files.

It's not done by default because it tends to break a number of things, or it's so lax that it's not very useful.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 10:11 UTC (Wed) by fwiesweg (subscriber, #116364) [Link]

> Weirdly, search is only set up to look through a handful of directories by default, which is not quite what one would expect. A user would likely expect all of the files in their home directory to be part of a global search, but this is not the case.

There might actually be a good rationale for this behaviour: whenever I set a up search system or a backup process, I spend at least an hour or two on configuring exceptions from "global home" as random applications consider it a dumping ground for cached or hard to parse data (browsers maven, npm, mail clients , ...). It's gigabytes and tens of thousands of files, much more than I actually want searched or backed up, providing no actual value.

There is no point in having those on the index. They unnecessarily bloat it, eating space, but more importantly IO, CPU time and battery when re-indexing. If I don't configure it properly, my backup solution actually spends most of its time on such stuff.

So this feels like a practical, stop-gap solution to a larger ecosystem issue, even though it's evidently not a great one.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 0:14 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

The proper solution is for apps to (correctly) implement the XDG directory standard. Then you just have to exclude ~/.config and a handful of other directories (whose names and paths are even system-wide configurable, if you don't like ~/.config for whatever reason). Unfortunately, I'm not sure who is in a position to require something like that:

* The Freedesktop folks just write and publish standards, they don't enforce them.
* GNOME isn't actually packaging anything, they're just pointing to Flathub and saying "use that."
* Flathub is checking for things like malware. Adherence to XDG and similar standards is a quality-of-implementation issue, (usually) not a security issue.
* Debian, Fedora, etc. are packaging things, but they're not Flathub so their opinion apparently no longer counts (given the article's reference to some GNOME apps being Flatpak-only).

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 0:16 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

> * GNOME isn't actually packaging anything, they're just pointing to Flathub and saying "use that."

Pedantic self-correction: They do package their own apps. But of course we should consider third-party apps - it'd be a bit silly to tell the user "for the best experience, please only use the apps that came with your operating system."

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 4:17 UTC (Thu) by ejona86 (subscriber, #43349) [Link]

Although Flatpak itself doesn't adhere to XDG base directories; it puts everything under ~/.var. There's arguments on the issue tracker that XDG doesn't make sense for Flatpak or Flatpak's approach is actually a good idea in light of XDG. Even if there's truth to the argument, it means you lose the benefits of XDG base directories by swapping to Flatpak.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 22:19 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

> There's arguments on the issue tracker that XDG doesn't make sense for Flatpak or Flatpak's approach is actually a good idea in light of XDG.

It is my understanding that nearly every upstream who receives an XDG bug makes exactly the same argument.

Windows figured out directory standardization multiple decades ago. Applications don't always get things exactly right (in particular, there is a strong tendency to save things in Documents when they probably should go in AppData), but at least they (mostly) don't litter your home directory with random hidden junk. The Linux desktop is built on pillars of sand.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 12:11 UTC (Fri) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link]

> Although Flatpak itself doesn't adhere to XDG base directories; it puts everything under ~/.var.

That's just because XDG_STATE_HOME hasn't been formalised in the base directories spec, even if it has been discussed multiple times:

- https://lists.freedesktop.org/pipermail/xdg/2009-February...
- https://lists.freedesktop.org/pipermail/xdg/2012-December...

The closest we've gotten is:

- https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2016-December/...
- https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2017-January/0...

Unfortunately, the status of the XDG spec maintenance has been in limbo for years; there has been some movement as of late: https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xdg/2024-March/014...

So I assume XDG_STATE_HOME will be formalised soon, thus removing this last objection.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 13:52 UTC (Fri) by gioele (subscriber, #61675) [Link]

> > Although Flatpak itself doesn't adhere to XDG base directories; it puts everything under ~/.var.
>
> That's just because XDG_STATE_HOME hasn't been formalised in the base directories spec, even if it has been discussed multiple times:

XDG_STATE_HOME is in version 0.8 of the basedir specs (released in May 2021): https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/based...

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 14:26 UTC (Fri) by ejona86 (subscriber, #43349) [Link]

Comingling xdg dir-complient app's .config, .local, .cache and app download into a single .var is the issue.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 30, 2024 14:53 UTC (Sat) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link]

How do you propose to isolate each application's access to their XDG directories, unless you put them into their own location?

Or should each application have access to each other's data, thus defeating part of the containerisation strategy?

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 30, 2024 18:25 UTC (Sat) by ejona86 (subscriber, #43349) [Link]

Why do anything special? Instead of ~/.var/app/foo.App/{cache,config,local/share,local/state} flip it to ~/{.cache,.config,.local/share,.local/state}/flatpak/foo.App/ like normal. Downfalls brainstorm: more mounts into the container, Flatpak would create the directories even if unused, Flatpak would need to observe the XDG_ environment variables, uglier documentation[1]. Is there a real impediment to the normal approach?

1. First bullet of https://docs.flatpak.org/en/latest/sandbox-permissions.html

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 8:06 UTC (Thu) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

In my experience, no developer that mostly uses go, rust, java, js, and sometimes python has ever heard of XDG and cares to store the files in the correct place.

Educating them one by one is very slow. Possibly having some automatic scanner open issues to the upstream projects would be more helpful

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 2:06 UTC (Fri) by AdamW (subscriber, #48457) [Link]

More or less this, yes, plus there were several years of bugs of "oh no, tracker-miners can't handle this *one really weird file* somewhere in my filesystem and is grinding away at 99% CPU forever trying to do it" that contributed to the eventual "let's stop trying to index everything" choice. There definitely were a few years where it would try to index your entire home directory by default, and it definitely caused problems.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 27, 2024 10:19 UTC (Wed) by LtWorf (subscriber, #124958) [Link]

I wonder if they finally fixed the webdav issue present in gnome2 where to download a directory they'd just do a GET and download the index.html with the list of the files, rather than iterating on the items in the PROPFIND.

Also, viewing a directory issued the same request 8 times in a row for some reason; weborf's caching of generated XML responses was part of my thesis… it would make accessing from gnome massively faster because of all the time a request was reissued.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 12:55 UTC (Thu) by pabs (subscriber, #43278) [Link]

Hopefully GNOME, KDE and other Wayland compositors eventually catch up with the crash resilience that Arcan added in 2017. I've had to switch away from GNOME recently on Debian trixie because of random crashes in mutter. I went back to Xorg and openbox, but maybe I should checkout Arcan finally.

https://arcan-fe.com/2017/12/24/crash-resilient-wayland-compositing/

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 17:37 UTC (Thu) by jem (subscriber, #24231) [Link]

When I first tried a containerized Firefox, I immediately noticed U2F didn't work. Googling for this problem reveals that containerized browsers in general break U2F left and right, and nobody seems to care.

Has there been any progress on this front? A non-working U2F is a big show stopper for me.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 28, 2024 22:11 UTC (Thu) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

Breaking U2F/WebAuthn/FIDO2/whatever-we're-calling-it-this-week is unacceptable. It's the only mode of authentication that has demonstrated real, sustainable phishing resistance in practice (and isn't "airgap everything and epoxy your USB ports like the DoD").

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 1:09 UTC (Fri) by numgmt (guest, #167446) [Link]

Browsers should not be run in Flatpak or Snap; when it is, the browser's own sandboxing is replaced with Flatpak or Snap's sandboxing, which is significantly weaker.

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Apr 4, 2024 11:28 UTC (Thu) by davidgerard (guest, #100304) [Link]

It'd be nice if Ubuntu didn't do that by default, then (with many interesting breakages following, such as those months when neither Firefox nor Chromium could see system fonts).

GNOME 46 puts Flatpaks front and center

Posted Mar 29, 2024 1:26 UTC (Fri) by ebassi (subscriber, #54855) [Link]

> Has there been any progress on this front? A non-working U2F is a big show stopper for me.

There's work towards a portal for that: https://github.com/flatpak/xdg-desktop-portal/issues/989


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