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Disunity at The Document Foundation

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By Jonathan Corbet
December 1, 2022
The Document Foundation (TDF) was created in 2010 to steward and support the development of the LibreOffice suite, which was then a new fork of OpenOffice.org. TDF has clearly been successful; unlike OpenOffice, which is currently under the Apache umbrella, LibreOffice is an actively developed and widely used project. But TDF has also been showing signs of stress in recent years, and the situation does not appear to be getting better. There are currently some significant disagreements over just what role TDF should play; if those cannot be resolved, there is a real chance that they could rip the Foundation apart.

Foundations and attics

Financial support for TDF comes primarily from a set of companies that are working with the LibreOffice code. All of these companies have a shared interest in a strong and active ecosystem around LibreOffice. That agreement tends to come to an end, though, when supporters feel that their contributions to TDF are being used to compete with them in the market. TDF supporters, it seems, want a development community that is strong, but not so strong that it doesn't leave them space for value-added services and products. Other members of the community, though, are mostly interested in the best LibreOffice that they can make and are indifferent to the prospect of impacting some company's revenue stream.

Tensions around this point had evidently simmered for some time before Michael Meeks (of Collabora) made them public in 2020:

Frustration with how TDF markets and positions its 'product' (LibreOffice) against the ecosystem that contributes the majority of the coding work is at an all-time high. That ecosystem itself is under long term stress.

In short, the version of LibreOffice created by TDF is sufficiently good that nobody felt the need to pay for support services. One approach for dealing with that problem was to brand the free LibreOffice as a "personal edition" and, perhaps, allow new features to go into paid "enterprise" editions (sold by TDF member companies) for some time before being added to the free version.

Needless to say, this idea was not universally popular. Even less popular was Collabora's decision to stop working on LibreOffice Online, a version of LibreOffice that provides collaborative editing of documents over the net. Collabora, which had been the principal (but not only) contributor to this code, is now developing it separately and marketing it under its Collabora Online branding instead. To Collabora, this move was a way to preserve the revenue stream from its LibreOffice work.

Others, though, saw it as a sort of looting of the LibreOffice commons by a single company. They were even less pleased in January 2022, when the Foundation's board proposed moving the LibreOffice Online code into an "attic", where it would no longer be part of the LibreOffice code base. Development of this code had stopped after Collabora left the building, so some saw it as an increasingly stagnant embarrassment to TDF. Others, though, saw the move as closing off any future community development of the online functionality. After months of tense discussion, the TDF board voted in July to delay the "atticization" of LibreOffice Online for now. This unresolved issue still hangs over the community.

TDF developers

The big argument over the last few months, though, is on a related topic: whether TDF should employ developers of its own and, if so, what those developers should work on. In February, board member Paolo Vecchi (Omnis Cloud Sarl) proposed that TDF should hire some developers of its own; the two suggested positions would work on creating a presence for LibreOffice in app stores, among many other things. (Then) board member Jan Holesovsky (Collabora), instead, argued that TDF needed mentors to support developers elsewhere: "teaching how to fish, not fishing itself".

There followed an intense conversation that continues to this day. Some participants feel that TDF should not be in the business of employing software developers — or even that, according to its bylaws, it cannot do so. Others see TDF-based developers as the core of a strong LibreOffice going forward. Yet others can accept developers employed by TDF, but want strong constraints on what those developers should be doing.

These viewpoints have been expressed in several interminable threads arguing over the proper role of TDF, with accusations of conflicts of interest flying in all directions. Much of the conversation was evidently in private, and it is hard to determine what the actual course of events was but, at some point, Vecchi and Holesovsky got together and put a serious effort into the creation of a proposal for the hiring of developers that would be acceptable to all involved. As part of this effort, Holesovsky backed down from the "not fishing" position and accepted that development could be done within TDF. Numerous versions of the proposal resulted from this dialog as various issues were worked out.

As of this writing, version 3.1 is the latest attempt. It makes the claim that TDF can support the community by employing developers to work on LibreOffice, especially if they focus on otherwise neglected areas. Suggested targets include better support of right-to-left and CJK (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) text, accessibility, interoperability with non-native file formats, and fixing of regressions: "there are 12.6K open bugs in TDF Bugzilla, of which 1.3K of them are regressions". The proposal also makes it clear that these developers will not work on long-term-support or "enterprise" versions of LibreOffice.

A sticking point

It seemed like things were getting closer to a conclusion, but there was, at a minimum, a disagreement over one stipulation in version 3.0:

TDF in-house developers will not compete with commercial contributors and will not develop alternative implementations of Open Source projects actively maintained by LibreOffice volunteer or corporate contributors – like Collabora Online, mdds, or cppunit.

This language goes to the core of the disagreement over TDF's role. Some participants do not feel that a vendor-neutral organization — that they are supporting — should be competing with them. Others, instead, do not accept the idea that member companies should be able to carve out pieces of the application space and prevent TDF-supported community development in those areas. Positions on both sides appear to be firmly entrenched.

At the beginning of November, Holesovsky publicly resigned from the TDF board:

It has come to the point when I am sick and tired of all the accusations and passive aggression against me and others. It has just become folklore in this community: "when you don't agree with somebody, accuse them that they do that because of commercial interests".

In other words, TDF has moved from a meritocracy (where the doers decide) to some kind of "shouting-ocracy" (where the vigorous shouters decide).

The resignation of one of its authors notwithstanding, on November 24, Vecchi put version 3.1 of the proposal to a vote of the board, suggesting that all of the disagreements had now been resolved. The controversial text quoted above is gone; in its place, the proposal reads:

Eventual limitations related to tasks, areas, projects or bugs on which the in-house developers should not work, eg. third parties are already engaged with them, shall be regulated through separate agreements and relevant communications between TDF and the third parties.

It quickly became clear that the promised consensus did not actually exist, though. Board member Cor Nouws (Nou&Off) stated that an alternative proposal was privately in the works; that proposal still has not been seen in public, but Emiliano Vavassori (another board member, whose affiliation is given as "a small company based in Bergamo") has decried the process under which it is being developed. Most board members, meanwhile, simply declined to vote on the proposal, with the result that it failed due to a lack of quorum. Board chair Thorsten Behrens (allotropia software GmbH) said that "this proposal is not ready to vote on", and Holesovsky resurfaced to say that: "That version is not balanced, and Paolo’s unwillingness to find balance there was one of the main reasons to my resignation". Meeks compared the discussion to "the Christmas pantomime season complete with comedy audience contradictions".

That is where the situation stands as of this writing.

The TDF board may yet find a way to hire a developer or two into the Foundation to work on neglected parts of that huge application. But that, honestly, is not TDF's biggest problem at the moment. Somehow, its membership has to find a way to clarify what the role of TDF should be and to rebuild trust and good will among its members. No organization can function indefinitely in a climate of distrust and acrimony, and that sort of climate is even more corrosive to a free-software development community. Those of us who depend on LibreOffice can only hope that this community will resolve its tensions before they lead to a breakdown and fork of the type that led to TDF's creation twelve years ago.


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Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 1, 2022 16:20 UTC (Thu) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

It is sad because TDF is a *long* way from competing with Collabora, and if it had the means to compete with Collabora there would have been no need to create a LO dev team @Collabora in the first place.

People need to take a break and realize that no one is going to get rich (quick or not) working on LO, that unless TDF scales its efforts a lot that won’t change a thing for Collabora, and that if it does manage to find enough funding to scale that will mean paying the same people working on the same code @TDF instead of @Collabora.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 1, 2022 16:23 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Yes, I agree. I don't think foundations that steer Free Software projects have a duty to help commercial entities that might have non-viable business models. Any company that supports Open Source / Free Software should go in with eyes wide open.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 1, 2022 21:55 UTC (Thu) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

The problem with that is it's cutting off your nose to spite your face. There is a BIG difference between "not helping", and "actively hindering", and if a company is sponsoring you then saying "we won't promise not to actively hinder you" is not going to get you far!

Let's split the contributors into roughly three groups. We have the "big company(s)", Collabora, RedHat. We have the Foundation. And we have the small contributors.

The small fry will do whatever suits them - they may well have goals that don't necessarily align with the big guys.

The Foundation is supposed to support and strengthen the ecosystem as a whole.

And again, the big guys will have their agenda which - let's be honest - IS TO PAY THEIR GUYS A SALARY. Without that, we're ALL WORSE OFF.

So the job of the Foundation really should be (a) to support making LO more robust and featureful to compete better in the market, and (b) helping the smaller players to grow their niche. I can understand Collabora not being happy if that eats a bit into their territory, but the Foundation should see it as a priority not to undermine the big players. If they can contract Collabora to do stuff on condition it goes straight into the open version, why not?

Just focus on building the ecosystem, and if that means providing infrastructure and bugfixing and stuff, that lifts all boats. If that means helping the smaller players build their niche, Collabora will have to just suck it up (or take advantage of it). And if it means helping Collabora to become profitable, well it will hopefully end up benefiting all of us.

To be honest, as a casual developer, I've never really understood what TDF do ...

Cheers,
Wol

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 5, 2022 2:31 UTC (Mon) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

I think the big guys agenda is to make a profit. Having to pay their developers a salary is just a incidental consequence of that goal.

There is a big difference when you actively hinder something vs let it be. Collabora does seem intent on actively hindering development in certain areas, by their own admission. That's their right, and if their contributions are needed badly enough to accept that compromise, c'est la vie. But better if TDF found a way not to compromise the code.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 5, 2022 15:01 UTC (Mon) by mmeeks (subscriber, #56090) [Link]

I think you've the wrong end of the stick. Collabora's mission is to make Open Source rock and is remarkably well aligned with TDF's mission. Both organizations would like to pay their staff I expect. Collabora is intent on contributing to Online and is drastically accelerating development of the open-source, collaborative editing / cloud product: Collabora Online based on LibreOffice technology as well as contributing back to LibreOffice significantly. This Online used to be hosted at TDF as a source-only project, until shortly after Paolo put a vote for TDF to create and distribute LibreOffice branded binaries etc. (which might have saved some time for his hosting business) and aggressively threatened to use TDF's collectively created brand to damage the viability of the staff working hard every day to create and polish the code. There is no compromised code =) The root question is one of how to wisely and constructively use the community created LibreOffice brand to drive the mission of TDF, rather than undermining it. There is a FAQ we should prolly expand here: https://collaboraonline.github.io/post/faq/

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 8, 2022 10:32 UTC (Thu) by sam.thursfield (subscriber, #94496) [Link]

Collabora is an order of magnitude smaller than Red Hat. One has 19,000 employees and the other around 100.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 8, 2022 10:32 UTC (Thu) by sam.thursfield (subscriber, #94496) [Link]

I should have mentioned, that the rest of your comment is excellent :-)

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 8, 2022 13:03 UTC (Thu) by hkario (subscriber, #94864) [Link]

Open core development model is non viable, it's just putting a lipstick on a pig. As Red Hat showed, you make money with Open Source not by selling premium features at a premium, but but providing support to the software. If that support is bug fixes, you *push the bug fixes upstream before distributing them to your own customers.* Counter intuitive? Maybe. The only way to make it actually supportable long-term? Definitely.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 1, 2022 18:46 UTC (Thu) by mmeeks (subscriber, #56090) [Link]

> That unless TDF scales its efforts a lot that won’t change a thing for Collabora

It is clear that with a small effort, and the huge history of goodwill associated with the LibreOffice brand - that TDF can put (free?) self-defeating products into the market that very substantially impact the companies who do a huge chunk of the work on LibreOffice cf. https://dashboard.documentfoundation.org/ - it's easy to put up a "Everything is free as in beer" sign. It might even increase usage for the first months - until it became clear that now the project un-sustainably killed its contributing ecosystem.

That is clearly seen today with the desktop / PC product - TDF tried an experiment to improve this product using moral suasion to encourage people to buy support & services many moons ago and the economic data to date (shared with members) shows thas had ~zero measurable impact.

> and that if it does manage to find enough funding to scale that will mean paying
> the same people working on the same code @TDF instead of @Collabora.

From an execution perspective TDF is sitting on Eur three million+ of un-spent donors money and growing; has little to no in-house technical leadership (cf. recent please tell us how to use blockchain in LibreOffice =), and at best moves at a glacial speed. Having a diverse ecosystem of effective companies around LibreOffice is what keeps it alive, dynamic, and fun - which it is: the developer community is (generally) un-touched by the toxicity of the board/staff fighting - and amazing things are done every day there.

I'd encourage people to get stuck in and get involved: https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ in development there are still fun people & lots of challenge & interest to be had.

Finally politics is the art of the possible, and also an art of iteration - it is possible to hire developers at TDF, that's something I for one (though no longer a board member, or on the ESC etc.) support. After a wasted nine months trying to find a fully acceptable compromise there, I expect we will get people hired finally.

I do wish some would stop making the perfect (which is seemingly a quagmire of fighting over how to direct them to do things that were not even advertised in the proposal) the enemy of the good - which is hiring them to work on the many things we know should be improved in LibreOffice and there is no controversy about at all.

Online - some history & background

Posted Dec 1, 2022 19:14 UTC (Thu) by mmeeks (subscriber, #56090) [Link]

On the "looting" Online front - I'm a little allergic to these theft based metaphors (that I do indeed hear from some outside the developer community sadly). If you write something yourself - is it looting if (having been threatened) the whole hacking team moves its work to another place ? Of course we continue to contribute at https://collaboraonline.github.io/ Collabora Online, and of course to LibreOffice to make huge numbers of things better - as can be seen in the release notes, or in pretty pictures eg. https://www.collaboraoffice.com/press-releases/collabora-... - stealing

For a more detailed treatment of the real story of Online - with credits for the people doing the work which are many and varied - see here: https://people.gnome.org/~michael/data/2022-09-29-online.pdf - if you have time you can listen to me rambling over the top of the slides here too recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gANxxShrUlU =)

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 1, 2022 23:35 UTC (Thu) by bkuhn (subscriber, #58642) [Link]

mmeeks, do you think Collabora might consider putting the CODE project under Affero GPL or copyleft-next? A quick check seems to indicate the existing codebase is MPL, which is AGPLv3-compatible, so you could start making inbound=outbound AGPL'd changes to the codebase right now. The reason I ask is that would show a clear commitment to keeping Free as in Freedom any and all code, even that which is deployed to customers in a possible for-profit Collabora project.

Given that the project is now fully taken back under the control (leadership-wise) by Collabora, it seems that you could make such decision unilaterally.

Even I (the ultimate FOSS licensing geek) admit that licenses can't solve every problem in FOSS, but a license might go a long way to handle the trust questions being raised about Collabora's CODE project.

— bkuhn (speaking for myself, not any organization with which I have an affiliation.)

P.S., to be clear, even purely in my personal capacity, I have no opinion fully formed yet on any of the myriad of other issues raised in Corbet's article; this one jumped out at me because as a FOSS activist, I'd really like to see more online-application projects adopt copyleft licenses with a online-services copyleft clause

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 2, 2022 10:38 UTC (Fri) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

Before promoting the AGPL, you should some day explain how the AGPL actually works, because all explanation so far are contradicted by the AGPL text, (e.g. by "you are not required to accept the license") and what does that mean for a software to offer an opportunity and what prevent intermediary proxies to remove it.

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 2, 2022 13:25 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

You've actually picked a very bad example. I hate to say it, but I think you need to learn to read legalese.

This example has been lifted directly from the GPL, so if you're not happy with the AGPL then you won't be happy with the GPL.

Quoting from memory (yes usually a bad idea) it says something like "you are not required to accept the licence, but if you do not then you cannot copy the software, because nothing else gives you permission to do so". In other words, either you accept the licence or you walk away.

There are loads of "questionable" things about the AGPL, but this one (lifted directly from the GPL) is not one of them.

Cheers,
Wol

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 2, 2022 14:56 UTC (Fri) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

Completely missed my point. The usual explanation on how the AGPL works precisely ignore that fact that you do not have to accept the license.

> You've actually picked a very bad example. I hate to say it, but I think you need to learn to read legalese.

Classy.

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 2, 2022 15:28 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Whoops. I think I see what you mean.

> 9. Acceptance Not Required for Having Copies.

> You are not required to accept this License in order to receive or
> run a copy of the Program. Ancillary propagation of a covered work
> occurring solely as a consequence of using peer-to-peer transmission
> to receive a copy likewise does not require acceptance. However,
> nothing other than this License grants you permission to propagate or
> modify any covered work. These actions infringe copyright if you do
> not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or propagating a
> covered work, you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so.

I said I thought this clause was just lifted direct from the GPL ... AIUI the AGPL is meant to prevent you using a modified GPL program as a server, so you do not need to distribute (convey) it and don't need to distribute your changes to your user.

HOWEVER. You did notice it says "nothing other than this License grants you permission to propagate or modify any covered work."? You did see the word *modify*?

So if I download and run a version off the internet, I'm fine. If I download, MODIFY the download, and run that, according to the AGPL that is NOT fine.

So no, if I don't accept the terms of the AGPL, then according to the terms of said AGPL I am barred from offering an internet service using a version of the software I have modified.

Cheers,
Wol

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 2, 2022 20:18 UTC (Fri) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

> Whoops. I think I see what you mean.
No, you do not.
The legal entity that runs the software and the legal entity that modifies it need not be the same.
The legal obligation of the later do not carry to the former.
The software is not a legal entity which can make offer.

Maybe you heard the usual narrative about AGPL, but it is not compatible with the text of the license.
There are two incompatible interpretations: one which is clearly non-free, and one which is full of loopholes.
(the most fun being a proxy that remove the offer from the html output at run time, so you did everything required by the license, but nobody get any offer).

I always hope Bradley would clarify, but after nearly 20 years, I am not holding my breath.

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 2, 2022 22:08 UTC (Fri) by NYKevin (subscriber, #129325) [Link]

The entity that modifies the software is required to comply with this:

> Notwithstanding any other provision of this License, if you modify the Program, your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely
> through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source of your version by providing access to the
> Corresponding Source from a network server at no charge, through some standard or customary means of facilitating copying of software. This Corresponding Source
> shall include the Corresponding Source for any work covered by version 3 of the GNU General Public License that is incorporated pursuant to the following paragraph [which is about GPL compatibility].

The entity that runs the software must either be the same entity that modifies the software (and so bound by the license) or else it must be an entity that does not modify the software (and so it cannot remove the component that provides "an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source" - because that would be modification).

> (the most fun being a proxy that remove the offer from the html output at run time, so you did everything required by the license, but nobody get any offer).

This goes to whether or not the proxy is part of "the Program," which is defined as:

> "The Program" refers to any copyrightable work licensed under this License.

Figuring out the answer to that question is basically impossible. Each country has its own copyright law, and different judges in different countries may well reach different legal conclusions about exactly where to draw the boundaries of a "copyrightable work."

It has to be that way. You cannot control how people run software in general. See for example 17 USC 117(a)(1) (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117) for the US law allowing this, but I imagine that other countries have analogous exceptions in their copyright laws.

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 18, 2022 14:18 UTC (Sun) by sammythesnake (guest, #17693) [Link]

>> the most fun being a proxy that remove the offer from the html output at run time, so you did everything required by the license, but nobody get any offer

> This goes to whether or not the proxy is part of "the Program," which is defined as:

>> "The Program" refers to any copyrightable work licensed under this License.

> Figuring out the answer to that question is basically impossible.

I'm not a/your lawyer, but that's something of a stretch to say the least.

The proxy is only "Licensed under this Licence" if it's a derived work of whatever's being proxied (or its creator separately licensed it so) and it'd be a *very* atypical set of law that would consider squid+regular expressions for an <a> tag a derivative work.

If there is such a jurisdiction, the entity creating the modified version of the software could explicitly put the text/id attribute of the source code offer into the public domain to sidestep even that possibility.

In a jurisdiction without a concept of "public domain" or some suitable equivalent, a separate broader licence would do.

(Equivalently borrowing the text from somebody else's work that is suitably licensed or public domain would have the same effect and maybe be even safer as the other work could in principle *predate* the AGPLed work, making a "derivative work" argument even more fanciful. How about a couple of lines of Shakespeare, for example?)

If the increasingly obtuse hypothetical jurisdiction didn't allow that, then I'm not sure we're talking about a jurisdiction one where the author's choice of licence is relevant at all. The laws would pretty much need to be hand crafted specifically to close this "loophole"

It's kind of a shame, though, because I think there probably ought to be *some* way for a software author to get the results the AGPL is intended to achieve, if that's what they want. I'm just not sure the AGPL can be said to do it...

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 23, 2022 10:31 UTC (Fri) by poruid (guest, #15924) [Link]

> This goes to whether or not the proxy is part of "the Program," which is defined as:
Seems plausible that a proxy is covered under propagation which is bound to the terms of the AGPL and if not, only iff the proxy does not alter the functions of the program.

Switch to AGPLv3 for CODE (Collabora's Online Developer Edition)?

Posted Dec 2, 2022 14:56 UTC (Fri) by mmeeks (subscriber, #56090) [Link]

> mmeeks, do you think Collabora might consider ...
> The reason I ask is that would show a clear commitment to keeping
> Free as in Freedom any and all code

Happy to think through anything together - FOSDEM? =). We have used inbound==outbound under mostly MPLv2 for the code-base (though there is some inevitable eclecticism). Why MPLv2 ? - tactically it has been thought that allowing proprietary apps and plugins to integrate with our code is a good tactic to drive Software Freedom in our market. MS Office our competitor - is perceived by ISVs as being omni-present, and 'free' (of price) and brings no requirements for proprietary automation integration - which is still the dominant mode sadly.

Beyond that the article doesn't have space to make it clear that this idea of closed features being only in enterprise editions before being published then added to the free version - is something we just don't do or want[!]. In previous discussions of the way ahead at TDF some people promoted an open-core (or better proprietary periphery =) model - which I'm far from a fan of; we're an Open Source company. We like to up-stream first wherever practicable and our product releases are a tag in public git. Our CODE/COOL builds include links to those git hashes in help-about so users can easily get to the code, changelogs, credits, and of course contribute a good bug report & ideally a fix =). Of course when it comes to release scheduling, we try to get some nice features stabilized, and shipped in our enterprise releases first - but all the source code is FLOSS.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 2, 2022 15:03 UTC (Fri) by mmeeks (subscriber, #56090) [Link]

> Having a diverse ecosystem of effective companies around LibreOffice is what keeps it alive, dynamic, and fun
I over-stated that. I should point out here that it's not just companies of course: the TDF staff are a vital part of the goodness here too =) and of course government users & others contributing - as well of course as innumerable volunteers doing amazing work. Apologies.
Still I think it is that diversity of viewpoint and interest in contributing that makes things exciting. Because of this diversity - it is also generally good to think carefully before acting at TDF vs. move-fast-and-break-things =)

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 1, 2022 18:27 UTC (Thu) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

I would be interested to know what proportion of recent changes to LibreOffice are made by Collabora, and what proportion come from other entities.

At first glance, a lot of the discussion is dancing around the idea that perhaps not all members of TDF are equal, because some contribute more code than others - and that from Collabora's point of view (as the big fish) this is all fine, but the littler fish in TDF are unable to find a way to grow their own businesses to a level where "competing" with Collabora to be the biggest TDF contributor in code terms is possible, and are concerned that a consequence of this is that only Collabora will have a business built around LibreOffice.

If I'm right, then this is something that occurs throughout the Open Source world - many things have a dominant contributor, and trying to build a business around competing with the dominant contributor is challenging.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 1, 2022 18:42 UTC (Thu) by ocrete (subscriber, #107180) [Link]

On LibreOffice Core (not including Online), Collabora contributes about a third of a commits, Red Hat another third and volunteers provide a quarter. All other commercial contributors contribute less than 10% of commits together. See the 2021 Collabora infographic.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 2, 2022 14:17 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

Thanks; that's useful information.

My read of it is that Collabora and Red Hat are thus dominant, Collabora is more noticeable because it moved some of its contributions away from TDF (Collabora Online), and this has triggered concern from the minority commercial players about what happens to their businesses if Collabora ever walks away from TDF completely. May, or may not, be a valid concern, but it's certainly a difficult set of waters to tread.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 1, 2022 23:28 UTC (Thu) by flussence (subscriber, #85566) [Link]

Whoever it was that cooked up the recent blockchain-courting announcement on behalf of LO (before the organisation getting deservedly dragged for it until they surrendered) ought to be loudly thrown under the bus. That would probably boost morale and integrity a bit.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 2, 2022 13:05 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

Throwing people under the bus is not a good idea. They need to live and learn.

Once you start throwing people under buses, "doing nothing" becomes the safe option, which is the complaint currently being levelled against TDF.

And having seen too many people thrown under buses for things OTHER PEOPLE put in their mouths, I'm not a fan of the practice!

(I'm currently watching "The Traitors" on UK tv - a reality tv survival game. So far two of the contestants have been "murdered", and two more thrown under the bus in the witch-hunt to find the traitors. Compelling viewing :-) There's - I think - £120K up for grabs for the winners - if there are traitors left at the end they get the lot, otherwise it's shared amongst the survivors.)

Cheers,
Wol

Alternative proposal

Posted Dec 2, 2022 10:39 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

For the curious: the alternative proposal from Cor Nouws has now been posted with a call for a vote.

Alternative proposal

Posted Dec 2, 2022 12:02 UTC (Fri) by karim (subscriber, #114) [Link]

Trying to follow this link gives me this error on lwn.net: "I'm sorry ...
...but I cannot allow you to do that.

(In other words, you've tried to perform a function which your account is not empowered to do. I'm sure it's all just a misunderstanding...) "

Alternative proposal

Posted Dec 2, 2022 12:39 UTC (Fri) by corbet (editor, #1) [Link]

Oops, my mistake... Fixed now, sorry

Alternative proposal

Posted Dec 2, 2022 15:34 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

A very simple document/plan, which makes a lot of sense.

Reading all this, I rather get the impression there are a few vocal people on a witch-hunt, throwing stones and jerking their knee in response to any rumour that comes along.

Okay, I'm pre-disposed to trust Michael, but I really don't see the problem with TDF throwing resource at programming and technical support. A rising tide lifts all boats (we hope). (And if said resource is directed at neglected areas, all the better!)

Cheers,
Wol

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 3, 2022 20:23 UTC (Sat) by Trelane (subscriber, #56877) [Link]

I don't understand the competition. How do these entities compete with each other over code? I thought it was more or less the same code, but with support.

how is e.g. Collabora different from vanilla LO? How about the Online stuff, and how do they relate to core LO?

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 8, 2022 21:34 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> Yet others can accept developers employed by TDF, but want strong constraints on what those developers should be doing.

I only read this article, not all the discussions (that's why LWN exists after all :-) and I still don't understand the problem... Developers employed by TDF should work only on higher priority bug fixes and features that benefit _most_ users. So this won't benefit any company or sponsor in particular and that's it! No? Isn't this how every successful and vendor neutral Foundation works? Of course the relative priority of issues is always debatable and debated but that's just an "implementation detail", it does not affect the overarching goals. Any issue affecting a single company is obviously _not_ something developers employed by the Foundation should work on.

Similarly, non-technical work of a "neutral" Foundation should never promote any product of any company in particular. Otherwise it's simply not "neutral".

I realize the devil is always in the details but it normally _stays_ in the details. Not here and why not? I mean are some people just making the definition of "neutral" artificially unusual and complicated or are there some actual, LibreOffice-specific issues?

Hopefully someone can dumb it even further down.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 8, 2022 21:41 UTC (Thu) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> TDF in-house developers will not compete with commercial contributors and will not develop alternative implementations of Open Source projects actively maintained by LibreOffice volunteer or corporate contributors – like Collabora Online, mdds, or cppunit.

Yeah right, there are 13K bugs filed including 1K demonstrated regressions but the 1.5 developers that the Foundation can afford are going to start developing some massive new feature that a unique member already offers and maintains with 10 times more people. Typical! (not)

Either it's paranoia or there is indeed a serious problem with the TDF management of developers that... don't exist yet! OK; so it's paranoia.

Disunity at The Document Foundation

Posted Dec 9, 2022 12:39 UTC (Fri) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

It's paranoia triggered by where this proposal is coming from. TDF has two big contributors (Collabora and Red Hat) making up about one thirds of contributions each, then around a quarter of contributions coming from volunteers, with the rest coming from other commercial sponsors. It's the other commercial sponsors who are proposing that TDF employs developers, and they're pointing at Collabora's decision to move development on Collabora Online from TDF's LibreOffice Online to their own VCS systems as justification for why this is needed.

Given that this is apparently needed because Collabora chose to move development of a big thing away from TDF into their own VCS on the grounds that all commits to the big thing were from Collabora employees, I can see why there might be a degree of paranoia.


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