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Desktops (Apple) Intel Apple Hardware Technology

Apple's ARM-Based Macs To Support Thunderbolt (theverge.com) 137

Posted by BeauHD from the no-need-to-worry dept.
tlhIngan writes: For those worried that the transition Apple is doing to ARM-based Macs will drop Thunderbolt, Apple has stated that they will continue to support Thunderbolt. This was a worry since Thunderbolt is primarily an Intel design (formerly known as Light Peak) with Apple collaboration, and that none of Apple's ARM based devices support it (not even the ARM Developer Transition Kit).
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

Apple's ARM-Based Macs To Support Thunderbolt More

Apple's ARM-Based Macs To Support Thunderbolt

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  • Who cares? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by weilawei ( 897823 ) on Thursday July 09, 2020 @07:24PM (#60281174)

    With ever fewer ports, more dongles (amounting to physically more mass and volume in total actual use), Apple doesn't make pro gear anymore.

    • Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Macrat ( 638047 ) on Thursday July 09, 2020 @07:39PM (#60281244)
      The future is USB4. Dongles re for outdated connections.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        Unfortunately ethernet isn't an alternative mode for USB4, you still need a dongle.

        Of course if you are in the Apple ecosystem you have to deal with USB and Lightning, or just resign yourself to charging up those headphones every day. If they are going to force wireless then they could at least include a Qi charging pad on the phones and laptops. Samsung phones have Qi charging.

        • Unfortunately ethernet isn't an alternative mode for USB4, you still need a dongle.

          IEEE 1394 / FireWire had an ethernet mode. Cable length was limited to 4.5 m, but that would have been enough to reach a switch/hub at a desk or on the wall. It's mostly dead on consumer electronics now. I think it hit the technical requirements better than USB 3, but it struggled as a secondary port in a world where ubiquitous interfaces and compatibility are important. Every time USB shifts between connector types they run the risk of losing their market dominance. I have computers that don't have USB-C c

      • So what do you do when someone goes to provide you a file and hands you a USB-A drive? You can deride them all you want for using outdated technology but that's still not going to the get the file onto your computer.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by fermion ( 181285 )
      Dingles come and go. It mostly depends on what you want to run. Right now a single USB hub is your docking station. The issue is that so many thing are on the old USB Random shape brigade.

      When Apple went to intel, you had to buy a FireWire adapter for SCSI and a 400 adapter for old 800 devices. SCSI provided true plus and play and true chaining, so it was useful. Now everyone has hubs.

      • I don't need a hub for my Dell, and you can be sure I have all sorts of crap attached to its many, many ports.

        The MBPs *do* need extra dongles, just to have basic functionality like an Ethernet port.

        Okay, I get it: "nobody" uses Ethernet anymore. I rest my case that Apple doesn't make pro gear.

        • Re: (Score:3)

          by vlad30 ( 44644 )
          I notice that the expensive windows laptop my wife uses is also free from Ethernet and many other ports and must plug into a hub/dock to get that functionality it comes down to the new slim form factor. I can see a new option on powerbricks being these features
          • And this is the most sensible design. If I am using my laptop in a mobile situation (such as a conference) room or airport, WiFi is the way to go. If I'm using at my desk, Ethernet may be a better option. My Dell laptop isn't thick enough for an Ethernet jack on the side of the machine. But plug it into a generic USB-C docking station and now I have Ethernet plus a myriad of other things. And generally you always want to dock a laptop on your desk so you get a full-size monitor and keyboard et cetera. I
      • I recall the challenge of SCSI chains, with getting termination right, plus of course the right connectors (big, weren't they?) on the correct SCSI version (-1, -2, -3, LVD). Plug and play wasn't ever the first thing that sprang to my mind.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          SCSI cabling was such fun. You had normal SCSI, wide SCSI, ultra-wide SCSI, LVDS SCSI, fibre SCSI, and within those groups had you various different kinds of cables too for internal and external use.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by raynet ( 51803 )

            Don't forget serial attached scsi

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by Malc ( 1751 )

            Ah, the days when I had three boxes containing 2GB SCSI drives chained together off my Pentium Pro tower, each with their own fan whiring away. Who needed an ergonomic footrest when you had those under your desk?

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

              I think the biggest SCSI drive I ever had back in the day was 320MB. It was an IBM server drive, very fast.

              I had so much SCSI stuff. CD-ROMs, scanners, Zip drives, floppy drives, MO drives... I should have called it Rosebud based on the way I feel about it now.

              • Itâ(TM)s possible Iâ(TM)m forgetting and they were half or even a tenth the size! It was more than 20 years ago.

              • Comment removed based on user account deletion

                • Re: (Score:2)

                  by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                  I want my A500 Plus back so badly. They are getting rare now because many have been killed by leaking batteries.

                  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                      Maybe you could use an alternative power supply. I know a lot of people replace their old linear Commodore supplies with switching ones now. The socket is a standard square DIN one, unusual but not difficult to get.

                      Definitely check the battery though, if it hasn't already started leaking it's about to and you should remove it ASAP.

                      The Amiga 500 was a fantastic machine. Very interesting to program, to get maximum performance it was all down to managing DMA slots effectively and reducing the workload for the

                    • Comment removed based on user account deletion

                    • Re: (Score:2)

                      by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

                      That's an interesting idea, but I don't see how you would stop a process just scanning memory for interesting stuff if you didn't bother with MMU based memory protection.

                      With any heavily custom architecture like that it needs to keep evolving to stay current. The original chipset was designed around memory bandwidth limitations. In every case where something like that has happened within a few years things got faster and brute force won out. The PowerVR 3D chips are another example. Very clever tile based r

                    • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • SCSI was easy

          Well, at least for those of us that understood that there were fundamental *technical* reasons that you had to periodically sacrifice a rodent to the chain.

          Once you learned which rodent and how often for your application, it was easy.

      • If you actually remember what it used to take to get SCSI connections working, you're going to greatly prefer Thunderbolt.

        • I've actually been playing around with a lot of SCSI stuff lately, and the biggest issue I've run into is my lack of the myriad physical adapters (Centronics-style, HD50, HD68, those 3-row D-SUB 50-pin connectors) needed to get everything connected. Just need one terminator at the far ends of the bus and it's golden (controller provides termination on its end, if applicable). Also need to mind whether the devices and HBA ports are SE/HVD/LVD as they can't be mixed on a bus. Had to swap the board on a DLT dr

        • SCSCI was always super simple.
          You just plug the drives in and set the jumpers or switches to give each drive an unique id from 0 to 7.
          No idea what your problem was.

          (I installed probably > 100 devices)

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Hadlock ( 143607 )

      You attach your laptop to a Thunderbolt 3/USB4 dock, which has all the weird legacy ports you need. Macbook Pro have never had balanced mono 1/4" phono plugs, are you going to knock them for that, too? No, you plug in a digital audio interface via USB. Laptops etc don't need more than 2 TB3/USB4 ports because you're expected to plug it into a dock. This is the worst argument.

      • Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by weilawei ( 897823 ) on Thursday July 09, 2020 @08:20PM (#60281376)

        I don't need a dock for my Dell, with its 2 Thunderbolt/USB-C ports, 3 USB-A SS ports, Ethernet jack, TRRS jack, Mini DisplayPort, HDMI port, SD card reader, CAC reader, and DC barrel jack.

        It's substantially less of a pain in the ass to use than attaching a rat's nest of dongles to one or two ports to get equivalent functionality.

        • Re:Who cares? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by divide overflow ( 599608 ) on Thursday July 09, 2020 @08:28PM (#60281388)
          To each their own. 99% of the time the only thing I have plugged into my laptop is the charging cable. Backup drives plug directly into the USB-C/Thunderbolt 3 port. If I need anything else I have an all-in-one plug in dongle that lives in my backpack or computer case. It's about 4" long.

          • If I need anything else I have an all-in-one plug in dongle that lives in my backpack

            Yep. Instead of carrying one device we carry 2 and call it progress.

        • Re:Who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)

          by dfghjk ( 711126 ) on Thursday July 09, 2020 @08:31PM (#60281394)

          What's really hysterical is that you think the number of things you plug into your notebook determines whether it's a "pro" machine.

          • No, I think being able to directly support different kinds of peripherals and workloads without external adapters/microprocessors makes it a pro machine.

            It's not about how many you attach, but whether or not the machine itself can handle the common standard devices of the day, or if you need to buy what is literally another computer (in your dongle) to support your workload.

          • What's really hysterical is that you think the number of things you plug into your notebook determines whether it's a "pro" machine.

            Well pros actually do shit with their machines, and move them from place to place if they're portable. With a nice thinkpad, you can basically use the thinkpad. Comes with USB A, C, HDMI, SD card, SIM card and probably some others.

            With a slower, heavier, more expensive mac (with a worse keyboard!) you have to carry around a bag of dongles.

            Want to get data off that old lab mach

        • What no RS232 or 422 ports? Clearly not a pro device, as you'd need a dongle for those to work.

      • You just said that headphone jacks are "weird legacy ports". Meanwhile almost every set of headphones in existence use standard headphone jack. The new jacks offer absolutely no benefit whatsoever, and in many case are actually worse while also being more expensive. In summation, sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. You're embarrassing yourself.
      • Docks are OK when you are using your laptop as a desktop replacement. When you are mobile you want your laptop to have ports. Dongles are one more thing to carry. Additional ports on a laptop cost very little in weight or complexity but save you the bulk and weight of dongles.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

        It's convenience. If you want to be a boy scout and carry around every dongle you might need then okay, but most people just want enough ports that they can plug in the common stuff like an external monitor, ethernet, headphones/mic and charger. Oh and a mouse, trackpads still suck.

        With just 2 ports that's really pushing it and it also depends where they are. Ports on which ever side you put the mouse can be annoying, especially if they are mid way down the body of the laptop.

        Lots of ports gives you options

        • I love my mac pro (10 years old w/10.12.6, but 64GB ram, 4 TB HD, 12/24 cores, 4K display); and my (very) OLD Apple macbook pro, which has a 17" inch display, a full-size DVI port, three USB ports, two firewire ports, an ethernet port, stereo analog audio in and out, a PCMCIA card slot, a lock fixture, nice speakers, and the awesome magsafe power connection.

          The only hardware design downside — considering the age of the computer — is the keyboard, which is, as always with Apple, a freaking awful

      • No. You use docks where it makes sense (i.e. at your own desk). There are plenty of use cases where you need non-USB-C ports while away from your desk.

        You're coming up with a ridiculous example, here are some non-weird ports people use on a daily basis: HDMI, DisplayPort, VGA (for presentations), USB-A (Flash storage, and basically every other computer accessory made in the past 10 years), Ethernet. I want to be able to plug stuff into my laptop, not pack 10 different dongles everywhere I go.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Malc ( 1751 )

      In work environment, pluging a Mac in to a USB hub (or Thunderbolt display in my case) with a single cable isn't really much different to the Windows world of dropping a laptop on to a dock, except it's simpler and works better. Seems pretty "pro" to me.

      I don't know what the fuss is about dongles. I have them, but I barely use them, which means it was the right decision to exclude them in order to deliver a device with a better profile. I think of all the years I lugged around Windows laptops with crap l

    • With ever fewer ports, more dongles (amounting to physically more mass and volume in total actual use), Apple doesn't make pro gear anymore.

      Name me another laptop that can have 52 I/O Ports, of your own choosing.

      I'll wait.

  • I was just using the thunderbolt issue as an excuse to criticize on apple, someone at /. reads comments! Thank Apple that my thunderbolt accessories will still work.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Macrat ( 638047 )
      And your future USB4 (which includes Thunderbolt) accessories will work as well.

      • your future USB4 (which includes Thunderbolt)

        To clarify, USB4 supports Thunderbolt 3 but not Thunderbolt 4.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by aitikin ( 909209 )

          your future USB4 (which includes Thunderbolt)

          To clarify, USB4 supports Thunderbolt 3 but not Thunderbolt 4.

          To clarify, USB4 has OPTIONAL TB3 support. So it'll just be as confusing about Thunderbolt 3 as it already is.

          • To clarify, USB4 has OPTIONAL TB3 support.

            Lovely. That's what I don't like about USB "standards"...some "standards" are options.
            It's like herding cats with these guys.

    • Re:How Convenient (Score:5, Funny)

      by infolation ( 840436 ) on Thursday July 09, 2020 @07:42PM (#60281268)
      According to hipsterdongles [hipsterdongles.com] ARM macs won't actually include a Thunderbolt port, they're just *compatible*.

      Apple's new proprietory protocol Odin runs on the the Hammertime interface. So you'll need a Hammertime-Thunderbolt adaptor (or Zeus adaptor plus a closed-source Mjolnir [wikipedia.org] driver, of course).

      • Will my Pagan Adapter still work for all my Hathor, Isis, Set, and Horus devices?

  • Obviously this move has been in the works for quite a few years. I have to wonder, given Ive's seeming allergy to anything which marred his designs, if at some point in his fevered dreams he pictured a completely port-less MacBook. Maybe even with wireless charging.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by nbvb ( 32836 )

      Completely obligatory .......

      https://youtu.be/KHZ8ek-6ccc [youtu.be]

    • Johnny Ive does not work for Apple anymore. He may still be involved with their designs, as his new company contracts with Apple, but it is safe to say he isn't the driving force behind things anymore.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dfghjk ( 711126 )

        It's amazing how famous a guy can get ripping off the work of German designers from 50+ years ago. Anything he did could have been done by a college student and a picture of an old Braun product.

        • And a manical attention to detail.

        • t's amazing how famous a guy can get ripping off the work of German designers from 50+ years ago. Anything he did could have been done by a college student and a picture of an old Braun product.

          The reality is that an excellent photographer did manage to take photos of some of Dieter Rams' products from exactly the right angle to make them look a bit similar to some Apple products. Turn them by 30 degrees and all similarity disappears.

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by dfghjk ( 711126 )

            That sound like I'ves' fault. Ives himself acknowledges that his inspiration came from Braun so your objection is dishonest.

            • That sound like I'ves' fault. Ives himself acknowledges that his inspiration came from Braun so your objection is dishonest.

              Dishonest? You can f*** right off. Dieter Rams was quite an influential designer, and lots of people are inspired by him. Doesn't mean that anything created by Ives for Apple looks anything like anything Rams designed, until you have very carefully and very cleverly staged photographs.

              • Google for "Braun T3 transistor radio" and you will find photos where it is claimed that Apple's first iPod copied it or was inspired by it, and dozens of photos showing it at some angle, where suddenly all the fake similarity disappears.

    • Why do you think they backed Thunderbolt (Lightpeak) and its optical connectors that never made it to market? Waterproof optical connections.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by dfghjk ( 711126 )

        You think the removal of connectors was driven by waterproofing? You think an optical connector is immune to water?

        They backed Thunderbolt for the benefits they received, not the ones they didn't.

  • Obvious (Score:5, Informative)

    by uarch ( 637449 ) on Thursday July 09, 2020 @09:47PM (#60281570)

    Duh!

    They have spent years with Thunderbolt and have developed an ecosystem of Thunderbolt accessories. No one with any grasp of the tech ecosystem believed they wouldn't support Thunderbolt.

    Frankly, if anyone you listen to suggested otherwise you should stop listening to them.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by drhamad ( 868567 )
      I wish I had points to give you right now. Did anyone with a brain really think this was going to be an issue?

    • Exactly. They are even “invested” in Thunderbolt with Intel.

    • They have spent years with Thunderbolt and have developed an ecosystem of Thunderbolt accessories. No one with any grasp of the tech ecosystem believed they wouldn't support Thunderbolt.

      For the next three years. After that, you're on your own.

      • For the next three years. After that, you're on your own.

        In your crystal ball of the future what technology would Apple use to connect their laptops to displays. Also what about their gear with other gear?

        • Who know? I don't have a crystal ball. I do know that Apple does not commit to keeping technology around for more than three years, this is a historical fact.

          • I do know that Apple does not commit to keeping technology around for more than three years, this is a historical fact.

            That is factually untrue and you should know better. If we talk about just Apple’s connect technologies for their iDevices alone, they kept the 30-pin for 9 years and replaced it with their Lightning for the last 8 years. In the very topic of Thunderbolt, Apple was one of the first to use it and 9 years later are still using it. But please keep telling yourself alternative facts.

  • It was all downhill after they dumped Firewire.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by drhamad ( 868567 )
      Firewire was great but never had any serious support. Thunderbolt does. It may fail in the end, but it's not a repeat of Firewire.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by ledow ( 319597 )

      Firewire was, by design, one of the most inherently insecure protocols ever.

      Arbitrary DMA to any memory address is required for Firewire to work.

      The reason it was "fast" was because the OS was not involved at all - the devices could read and write to any part of memory they wanted to, at bus speed, without hindrance.

      Literally the worst hardware protocol since 3DFX (whose cards did something very similar, and whose Windows driver would allow you to use the card to bypass all memory restrictions whatsoever).

      • Literally the worst hardware protocol since 3DFX

        Except really fucking useful. Hard realtime guarantees, lower latency than USB, guaranteed bandwidth, broadcast behaviour, much much faster than USB at the time, decent power delivery, good connectors. Oh yeah and not a massive CPU hog.

        Yeah yeah security, but security is worthless if you computer can't actually do the task you need it to do. If doing it isn't a requirement, you get better security by simply chucking it in the bin.

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